EAP Return to US

[Knightshade]

Using your method of calculations, Tesla charges $16K for Überturbine Wheels, because that is what it would cost you to upgrade to those wheels if ordering Model 3 RWD

That would make total sense if that was the only way to get them.

But of course you can buy them separately for far less money (and even get a partial refund by selling your old wheels!)

Supercruise you can't add by itself though- and also can't to the base model after purchase (unlike EAP or FSD).


So instead your analogy makes 0 sense.

Doesn't Tesla start charging monthly for advanced connectivity even sooner?

Advanvced connectivity isn't required for autopilot (or EAP, or FSD)

Whereas Supercruise DOES require monthly payments once the "free" subscription runs out.

So the question also makes no sense.

 

[TBrownTX]

It would be awesome if Tesla let you add these a-la-carte.

Tim

 

[whitex]

That would make total sense if that was the only way to get them.

But of course you can buy them separately for far less money (and even get a partial refund by selling your old wheels!)

You could, but not from Tesla. You could argue that you can get FSD cheaper too by paying some hacker to enable it for you for way less than Tesla charges. Compare what is officially sold by the manufacturer, not aftermarket mods.

 

[Knightshade]

You could, but not from Tesla

Except, of course, you can buy them. From Tesla.

What do you think someone does if they damage an uberturbine wheel- did you think they need to buy a whole new car to replace it?

No- they buy one from Tesla. Which sells them. And will be happy to sell you 4 instead of 1 if you prefer. For way less than 16k.


Just to save everyone time, can you just list all the other factually wrong arguments you plan to make in a single post?

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Nope, the beep on green light is the killer feature. I think I would take that over auto lane change.

How?

Auto lane change is the only way to stay in AP, and it works reasonably well. Sure there were so issues for awhile where it got tricked out by trucks in the far lane and would cancel out. But, in my experience Auto lane change works around 98% of the time which is far more than most EAP features.

The beep on green is nice, but it doesn't have a very good accuracy rate. I've had it beep when it wasn't my green light.

I also don't think they take beep on green far enough. They should keep expanding it to include stop signs too where it beeps when it thinks its your turn to go. Kinda like "hey dummy, lets get a move on".

I think beep on green was one of those unanticipated features that people really like, but Tesla fails to recognize are like for it. Its like dashcam where we like it, but Tesla is just so painfully unware of our desire for it to work properly and to expand it to all cameras.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I've had it beep when it wasn't my green light.

Yeah, me too. False positives happen but in this case are no big deal, for me at least. I check the light, which is usually green, then go, if I for some reason was not paying attention (usually I don’t get the ding because I am already going).

How?

It’s a tough call. I disengage autopilot so often anyway, I feel I would get used to doing it whenever I changed lanes. To be clear, I would not want to give it up. Auto lane change is nice. That’s why I mentioned it as an exchange feature. The other stuff (NOA, Summon, SS, etc.) I would DEFINITELY trade for green light beeping.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

The biggest pull the Bolt has right now is it's half the cost of a Model Y. Yes I know Tesla is superior when it comes to features and especially the charging network. In fact, the charging network is what really drew us to Tesla and why we really wanted to order a Model Y to go with our 3, but they are so expensive right now that even if we traded in our Model 3 we would still be looking at bumping our monthly payment over $400 more just to make it work for a Y.

What I get from this thread is there are a lot of emotional elements involved in deciding whether to get a Tesla or going with some other EV.

I'm in this same process myself while I try to decide whether I'll sell my Tesla or my ICE car when I pickup my Rivian R1T. Or maybe I don't sell either and I simply the Rivian R1T to pocket the difference between my reservation price and the current market price. I find that behavior a little troubling, but I wasn't the one who made the situation the way it is. I thought I was buying a $75K vehicle, and not paying $75K for a 100K vehicle. Now I'm not complaining about being in this situation, but it's a bit weird for me. Usually I have a $75K vehicle that worth $50K the second I drive it off the lot.

In any case:

Charging: I strongly believe that the combination of the Electrify America Charging network, and destination charging (including Tesla destination charging with an adapter) will work for my needs. But, I still have the fear that many people have about charging reliability and general hassle. The Electrify America chargers have to work with a LOT of vehicles. Sure its a standard and vehicles should all work, but that's rarely the case when it comes with stuff that interacts. It's also been my experience with Tesla Superchargers that they don't seem be scaling with just how many vehicles they'll selling. Often times i'll come in and a station will be mostly full. In any case Tesla is best for people who just want as little hassle as possible with something really proven out. The electrify America is fine for people who will do more research before hitting the road.

L2 Assisted Driving: I bought my Tesla in 2018 with EAP+FSD and I never felt like it really delivered on the expectations I had with EAP. A lot of this stuff comes down to road types, and expectations. I admit I have high expectations and if things don't work the vast majority of the time I simply don't use them. Like in the early days with AP it would re-center in the right lane during merge points. This drove me nuts as the car should just track the left line lane and ignore the lane widening. Even in the latest firmware version is still slides slightly over. There were periods of what I'd call excessive phantom braking, but most of that went away in recent builds. The biggest issue right now is TACC isn't smooth in stop and go traffic. It used to be smooth, but they broke it and haven't fixed it. I haven't seen a lot of complaints about this. For the most part I enjoy using AP plus auto-lane change. All the other features just don't work well enough for me to bother with. Every time I try NoA it acts completely nutty. I expect Rivian to have similar capabilities as AP + ALC on freeways that I use so I don't think I'll really miss any EAP feature. It's really too bad NoA never worked as I really wanted it to. Most of driving to Portland and back is being in the middle lane and passing people on occasion. There really wasn't anything too terribly difficult for EAP to do.

FSD: So far the FSD Beta builds have been pretty terrible where it's far too embarrassing to use with someone behind me so my use of it is really limited. It also feels like there are some major hardware limitations that keep it from performing well. I mostly sense this with 4 way stop lights that are the multilane ones that are really wide. I went through the Safety Score hell to use FSD beta so part of me wants to continue to test it out on each build. But, its kinda silly for it to be a decision as to whether to sell a car or not. I mostly got it because I figured it would be an interesting experience. $3K for an interesting experience isn't bad. Rivian has no public FSD plans and its not something most Rivian customers really want.

 

[sjg98]

Tesla resurrecting EAP for $6k would seem to be a bit of a tell that they don’t truly expect revolutionary FSD progress they can ship to all FSD buyers anytime soon. Between FSD being $12k, requiring you to take a virtual drivers test, wait in a queue and then.. it not actually being that good.. people are not paying up.

If Tesla had the confidence Musk presents on Twitter re: FSD being production-ready for mass market release, they’d be eager to hold tight and collect that $12k soon. I’m sure another factor is the increased regulatory scrutiny of their “move fast and break things” approach. We’ve seen some press about investigations that have been ongoing for months, who knows what we don’t know about yet.

Again, always watch what people/companies do, not what they say.
If your long-awaiting perpetually limited-release beta product was on the verge of mass market release, you wouldn’t release a “lite” flavor of it at half price to undercut yourself.

 

[sjg98]

Yeah, me too. False positives happen but in this case are no big deal, for me at least. I check the light, which is usually green, then go, if I for some reason was not paying attention (usually I don’t get the ding because I am already going).

It’s a tough call. I disengage autopilot so often anyway, I feel I would get used to doing it whenever I changed lanes. To be clear, I would not want to give it up. Auto lane change is nice. That’s why I mentioned it as an exchange feature. The other stuff (NOA, Summon, SS, etc.) I would DEFINITELY trade for green light beeping.

Agreed, most of the stop light/sign stuff is more dangerous than helpful still.
I’ve had it beep at me for green arrows in adjacent lane, and slam on brakes for things like the Burger King sign, a non-traffic light that is red, a stop sign for other road that has a less than 45 degree angle to my road, yellow flashing signal lights, etc. It really hasn’t gotten any better in 2 years, and flakes out in the same locations/scenarios.

 

[KLam]

Tesla resurrecting EAP for $6k would seem to be a bit of a tell that they don’t truly expect revolutionary FSD progress they can ship to all FSD buyers anytime soon. Between FSD being $12k, requiring you to take a virtual drivers test, wait in a queue and then.. it not actually being that good.. people are not paying up.

If Tesla had the confidence Musk presents on Twitter re: FSD being production-ready for mass market release, they’d be eager to hold tight and collect that $12k soon. I’m sure another factor is the increased regulatory scrutiny of their “move fast and break things” approach. We’ve seen some press about investigations that have been ongoing for months, who knows what we don’t know about yet.

Again, always watch what people/companies do, not what they say.
If your long-awaiting perpetually limited-release beta product was on the verge of mass market release, you wouldn’t release a “lite” flavor of it at half price to undercut yourself.

And may I add:

1. People who bought EAP will not have the free upgrade for hardware (if required, even with the current deleted radar) if they want to buy FSD later. Releasing their pressure on extra expenses when FSD is released.

2. They can increase the FSD price even further than $6,000, the current equivalent.

3. Further define what FSD and FSDbeta are and separate the discussions.

 

[Big Dog]

And may I add:

1. People who bought EAP will not have the free upgrade for hardware (if required, even with the current deleted radar) if they want to buy FSD later. Releasing their pressure on extra expenses when FSD is released.

2. They can increase the FSD price even further than $6,000, the current equivalent.

3. Further define what FSD and FSDbeta are and separate the discussions.

Why do you say that? Why wouldn't Tesla swap out HW 2.5 for 3.0+ (at no additional charge) if someone wants to purchase FSD in the future? Those of us that bought 2.5 were told that our models came with all of the HW to run FSD. (so that's an implicit promise that they have to make it work later.)

 

[Daniel in SD]

Tesla resurrecting EAP for $6k would seem to be a bit of a tell that they don’t truly expect revolutionary FSD progress they can ship to all FSD buyers anytime soon.

Not really, they can sell EAP now to the doubters for $6k and then sell FSD to them next year for $50k when it's robotaxi capable.
The only reason they charge so little for FSD now is that they need beta testers and the current discount is still cheaper than the cost and liability of having employees do it.

 

[KLam]

Why do you say that? Why wouldn't Tesla swap out HW 2.5 for 3.0+ (at no additional charge) if someone wants to purchase FSD in the future? Those of us that bought 2.5 were told that our models came with all of the HW to run FSD. (so that's an implicit promise that they have to make it work later.)

Let's just wait and see what Tesla will do with FSD purchase pricing and what they will promise upgrade path for only EAP purchase "now". I am not talking about prior FSD purchases and promises. I got a feeling that Tesla will do away with the free hardware upgrade promise for future FSD purchase.

 

[golfpilot]

Let's just wait and see what Tesla will do with FSD purchase pricing and what they will promise upgrade path for only EAP purchase "now". I am not talking about prior FSD purchases and promises. I got a feeling that Tesla will do away with the free hardware upgrade promise for future FSD purchase.

I have had EAP for 4 years now. When I inquired about upgrading to FSD they said the hardware was included in the price. If I just wanted HW3 hardware, it is a $1000 upgrade. If they port the FSD freeway level stuff to EAP, but require HW3, I'll pay for that upgrade. 70k miles and 4 years though... EAP has done everything FSD has done. Hard to reason a $6k upgrade, let alone $6k upgrade for something not even released to everyone yet, on a car with 70k miles

 

[Knightshade]

Tesla resurrecting EAP for $6k would seem to be a bit of a tell that they don’t truly expect revolutionary FSD progress they can ship to all FSD buyers anytime soon.

This has been a really interesting Rorschach test


Some folks are convinced this is proof FSD is far away- so they're desperate to get SOME money now from more people.

Others are convinced this is proof FSD is REALLY CLOSE- because that means having the "more than EAP" stuff in one extra-charge package will finally be worth buying on its own.



FWIW, I don't think widespread RTs are coming anytime soon---but FSD city streets (the thing currently in narrow release beta) is gonna be L2 anyway even in wide release, so that's irrelevant to this discussion.


That said I also find that first argument has flaws... Largest being they were already recognizing over 50% of the 12k price, so they're actually losing recognized revenue per EAP sale vs per FSD sale (though it might be offset by more people buying it- either way it's gonna be a rounding error compared to the $ Tesla earns otherwise).

EAP has done everything FSD has done.

That's not entirely accurate. FSD has been doing stop sign and stoplight recognition and reaction for a couple years now, EAP does not do that. Some folks find that adds significant value when they use AP on local roads (though you're not technically supposed to of course )


(that's apart from the city streets beta test stuff that is not officially "part" of buying FSD at all right now, but is eventually intended to be once it's good enough for wide release).

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Why do you say that? Why wouldn't Tesla swap out HW 2.5 for 3.0+ (at no additional charge) if someone wants to purchase FSD in the future? Those of us that bought 2.5 were told that our models came with all of the HW to run FSD. (so that's an implicit promise that they have to make it work later.)

Does anyone know if the EAP upgrade will come with HW3?

We're assuming it won't under the belief that the feature set doesn't require it? But, is that really correct? Vision Autopark currently requires HW3. The previous non-vision Autopark doesn't work nearly as well.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

This has been a really interesting Rorschach test

I see Elon trying to appease the demand from his twitter followers as the sole reason.

For evidence I present all the issues it brings up.

It's $6K whether its a brand new vehicle or a 2018 that doesn't even have basic AP. So the 2018 person gets more for his money.

We ALL should know that Tesla is going to single stack and the single stack requires HW3. But, there is no mention of whether EAP comes with a HW upgrade to HW3.

There is very little value in the EAP for someone who already has Basic AP so I can't see the take rate being very high. The only people buying it will be people that didn't do any research into whether Smart Summon, Auto Park, Auto Lane Change or NoA actually worked. From what I've seen very few people owners believe its worth $6K.

So yeah just another dumb Elon thing in a string of dumb Elon moments.

 

[Knightshade]

Does anyone know if the EAP upgrade will come with HW3?

To my knowledge no AP2.x owner who has bought EAP has ever gotten a free HW3 upgrade as a result, so no idea why that would change now.

Vision Autopark currently requires HW3.

Does it? (I legit don't know- as I already had HW3 upgraded free by the time this feature came out and can't recall anyone actually confirming this difference either way)- but the EAP sale page just says autopark, it doesn't promise you a specific version of it.

I see Elon trying to appease the demand from his twitter followers as the sole reason.

For evidence I present all the issues it brings up.

It's $6K whether its a brand new vehicle or a 2018 that doesn't even have basic AP. So the 2018 person gets more for his money.

Except the newer car has gotten to use basic AP for years for free, while the 2018 guy who never had any AP features did not- so that kinda evens out in the end.

Plus, if as you claim vision autopark only works with HW3, the newer car guy is STILL getting more than the 2018 dude is unless the 2018 dude kicks in another 1k for the HW3 upgrade

There is very little value in the EAP for someone who already has Basic AP so I can't see the take rate being very high. The only people buying it will be people that didn't do any research into whether Smart Summon, Auto Park, Auto Lane Change or NoA actually worked

Literally all of those except smart summon work great though. I use ALC and NoA on virtually every drive I make and have for years- they're terrific.

They're the main things folks ASKING for years for EAP to come back have wanted.

(Well, maybe just "works decently" for autopark- the vision version anyway-it's finally good enough to be usable even if it's not QUITE as fast as a good human for perp. parking.... as to Smart Summon.... it works... good enough for things like coming to the covered area in front of work when it's raining as long as I parked close though-- adding some range would fix that... it's pretty crap in busy lots still though)

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Literally all of those except smart summon work great though. I use ALC and NoA on virtually every drive I make and have for years- they're terrific.

But, you're a rarity.

Heck even I had to come to the defense of ALC on a local PNW post on this topic.

Where I explained where it works well, and where it fails. I really like ALC for the most part.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Does it? (I legit don't know- as I already had HW3 upgraded free by the time this feature came out and can't recall anyone actually confirming this difference either way

@Daniel in SD has confirmed this, since he is enjoying his discounted EAP with HW 2.5.