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Early Model S battery replacements

What’s your experience with the early Model S (2013-2015) battery?

  • Early battery replacement, trouble free since then

    Votes: 8 36.4%
  • No battery replacement yet, even with 200k+ miles on it

    Votes: 6 27.3%
  • Battery replacement after 100k+ miles and 5y+

    Votes: 10 45.5%

  • Total voters
    22
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Hello

I’m driving a 2015 Model S 85 with 186k km’s (115k mi). Warranty is about to end in March so I’m interested in the real battery lifetime of the early models, although it’s never a certainty.

Would be interesting if there’s some detailed data in a shared spreadsheet to determine average battery lifetime/mileage of classic models batteries.
 
Hard to get an exact answer with so many different variables like weather and charging habits. Could be someone living in colder climates, constantly draining the battery below 20%, always supercharging.

My 2015 MS 70 battery failed after 190k miles with roughly 20 occurrences of draining to 0% and lots of supercharging miles.
 
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Hard to get an exact answer with so many different variables like weather and charging habits. Could be someone living in colder climates, constantly draining the battery below 20%, always supercharging.

My 2015 MS 70 battery failed after 190k miles with roughly 20 occurrences of draining to 0% and lots of supercharging miles.
Thanks! It hard indeed, but I’m just curious.
 
Hard to get an exact answer with so many different variables like weather and charging habits. Could be someone living in colder climates, constantly draining the battery below 20%, always supercharging.

My 2015 MS 70 battery failed after 190k miles with roughly 20 occurrences of draining to 0% and lots of supercharging miles.
So what did you do when it failed? I have a 2015 70D with about 145k miles and the warranty is up soon. I am trying to figure out what my best options are going forward.
 
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Using mileage to evaluate wear on ICE cars make sense. On MS's battery and drive units, one factor in failure seems to be just time. Lithium Ion batteries deteriorating even without use (all batteries do, there is constant chemical reaction potential). LDU's coolant seal seems to leak in relation to time rather than mileage.

Battery pack water ingress issue probably also highly dependent on region/weather, parking location (indoor/outdoor) and salted roads.

In terms of owner satisfaction. Combined this time related failure rate with Tesla's 8 year unlimited mile battery and drive train warranty. High mileage drivers got the best out of this deal (The early Model S taxi guy won). Low mileage drivers (like me) maybe more likely to be disappointed. We see owners reporting 200k without problems and those with major failures at over 50k (and disappointed if out of 8 year warranty)
 
So what did you do when it failed? I have a 2015 70D with about 145k miles and the warranty is up soon. I am trying to figure out what my best options are going forward.
My warranty ends November 2023 so I was able to bring it to Tesla for a cost free replacement. I actually opted to upgrade my pack from 70->90kwh for $3000. My drive unit is still original so I’m hoping that fails before end of this year…
 
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My warranty ends November 2023 so I was able to bring it to Tesla for a cost free replacement. I actually opted to upgrade my pack from 70->90kwh for $3000. My drive unit is still original so I’m hoping that fails before end of this year…
Oh, your timing worked out for you, at least for your battery. My warranty ends in May, so I'm afraid my battery will make it the end of my warranty, and then may fail soon after that.
What kind of rated range do you get with the 90kwh upgraded battery? Does the car feel or drive any differently with the bigger battery? Any change in efficiency, like your Wh/mi?
 
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122K miles on a 11/13 built S85, no replacement but it's been nerfed since Summer of 2019. Went from 256 rated range in May 2019, to 244 rated range overnight, bounced around between 242 and 246 for awhile, as of 2022 the most I've seen is 236. Bummed to lose to the range and I swear the power output is less too, but the expanded Supercharger network has made up for it.
 
Oh, your timing worked out for you, at least for your battery. My warranty ends in May, so I'm afraid my battery will make it the end of my warranty, and then may fail soon after that.
What kind of rated range do you get with the 90kwh upgraded battery? Does the car feel or drive any differently with the bigger battery? Any change in efficiency, like your Wh/mi?
I get 297 miles rated. I honestly don’t feel a performance difference, but my dad said he felt the car was faster… might just be in our head. I did notice my motor was a lot louder, especially noticeable when going lower speeds, I’m not sure if installation missed some sound deadening piece or what’s the exact cause.

Unfortunately, I only started paying more attention to efficiency numbers when researching about the 90kwh pack upgrade while my car was down, so I don’t have any before numbers. But from my day to day driving I was able to achieve 300Wh/mi doing freeway driving keeping it under 70mph in ideal conditions, relatively flat. So seems like the increase in weight doesn’t play a huge difference.

Hope things work out in your favor. If I were you, I would definitely opt for the range upgrade, it’s almost a no brainer. Going from 70 to 90kwh back in 2015 was an absurd amount, like $10k? Now it’s only $3k with warranty.
 
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Using mileage to evaluate wear on ICE cars make sense. On MS's battery and drive units, one factor in failure seems to be just time. Lithium Ion batteries deteriorating even without use (all batteries do, there is constant chemical reaction potential). LDU's coolant seal seems to leak in relation to time rather than mileage.

Battery pack water ingress issue probably also highly dependent on region/weather, parking location (indoor/outdoor) and salted roads.

In terms of owner satisfaction. Combined this time related failure rate with Tesla's 8 year unlimited mile battery and drive train warranty. High mileage drivers got the best out of this deal (The early Model S taxi guy won). Low mileage drivers (like me) maybe more likely to be disappointed. We see owners reporting 200k without problems and those with major failures at over 50k (and disappointed if out of 8 year warranty)
I like your comments howardc64. Like you, I'm a low mileage driver. I hope to get max possible years from my original drivetrain and battery. I try to do all the things you read that might extend battery life, like keeping out of extreme temps, no jackrabbit starts, limited supercharging, ect.
15'MS 70D, 88,000 miles, MCU2 upgrade with LTE, 8 year Warranty exp. April/23.
Looks like you're driving your car and original battery out of warranty for a couple years?? what's your year/battery/mileage/?
Any suggestions for me?
 
I like your comments howardc64. Like you, I'm a low mileage driver. I hope to get max possible years from my original drivetrain and battery. I try to do all the things you read that might extend battery life, like keeping out of extreme temps, no jackrabbit starts, limited supercharging, ect.
15'MS 70D, 88,000 miles, MCU2 upgrade with LTE, 8 year Warranty exp. April/23.
Looks like you're driving your car and original battery out of warranty for a couple years?? what's your year/battery/mileage/?
Any suggestions for me?

After reading and listening to @wk057, @Recell, and a bit of fundamental rechargeable battery detail studying on my own. Here is my current conclusion. Would love to hear what the 2 experts that have seen a ton of failed packs think :)

 
sounds about right.

where we’re less clear is the ROI on preventative maintenance on older packs - specifically 2012-2015

while we are naturally predisposed to preventative maintenance and we complete these activities as part of every pack we deliver, unless you’re located immediately proximate to a service center that provides these services, it’s not clear how spending as much as $4000 or more (once you include return shipping) on preventative (or rather elective) maintenance pencils out.

again, we’re not discounting the proven value of a preventive maintenance program, but given these economics, better not to just let these older packs run their course, and then replace?

(yes, we know, convenient for a battery vendor to suggest ;), but…)
 
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sounds about right.

where we’re less clear is the ROI on preventative maintenance on older packs - specifically 2012-2015

while we are naturally predisposed to preventative maintenance and we complete these activities as part of every pack we deliver, unless you’re located immediately proximate to a service center that provides these services, it’s not clear how spending as much as $4000 or more (once you include return shipping) on preventative (or rather elective) maintenance pencils out.

again, we’re not discounting the proven value of a preventive maintenance program, but given these economics, better not to just let these older packs run their course, and then replace?

(yes, we know, convenient for a battery vendor to suggest ;), but…)
👍
 
BTW, I've seen some pretty corroded HV battery fuse covers from water ingress (just online pics, not in person)

Electrified Garage Stainless Steel HV Fuse Cover for Tesla Model S Gen (evtuning.com)

Its pretty easy to see the corrosion on this cover with the tunnel in frunk tub removed. This provides a first order approximation of the corrosion in and around the HV battery hump. Sounds like that is a major water ingress location. Fairly easy to remove: frunk bottom carpet, tunnel top liner cove, 4 plastic load security knobs, both side liners (need to pull it out from under the seal and frunk light/lock plastic piece and 9 10mm bolts (4 need long socket). Putting the tunnel back requires pushing the bottom in to aid the bolts to clear.

IMG_0097.jpegIMG_0102.jpegIMG_0100.jpeg

Unfortunately can't easily peek right behind the hump as there is a rubber seal there. Took a pic with my $5 aliexpress borescope where the seal ends.

IMG_0101.jpeg2023-01-24-14-52-39.jpg

Couldn't find any pictures online of this area with wheel liners removed. Maybe there is a way to sneak a borescope underneath the seal to take a look.

My car is 2013 MS85 75k miles, garage parked at home+work. Have driven in rain in the wet Pacific Northwest + car washes. But no salted roads.

Note the fuse cover moisture may not be only from AC drain. Poor windshield runoff seam gaps and cabin air filter inlet water runoff looks like it dumps directly behind gen1 DCDC and likely on top of the fuse cover.

 
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to be honest, this level of corrosion - at least from the section in the pic above - looks relatively minor for a fuse cover and quite in line with the age, proximity to debris, etc, and of course the material itself, it is steel after all. obviously, the location and the implementation of the AC drain hose, the cabin air drip tray and the fuse cover are flawed - for example, see how that rubber sealant creates a moat around the fuse cover? just perfect for trapping water and road salt able to soak and work their way through the top... 😖 that's the most common issue we see with fuse covers from the Northeast - 4 alone this past month - all with varying degrees of corrosion in the fuse cover, one near fatally.

but overall, water ingress would NOT be our first concern with the fuse cover on your pack. certainly not from the pic above. (that 20 mV drop on that one brick you might want to see someone about however...) Northwest winters are wet, but without the salt, it just makes for a lot of pine needles and dirt build up in the rails -- without a doubt, the siderails on Northwest Teslas end up caked in dirt and crud, more than any of the others we've ever seen, it must be the constant drizzle and steady supply of organic material/rot on the roads. ;)

and elsewhere around the country? meh, to be honest not much there there. as a medical report might say in looking at the fuse covers we otherwise see, 'nothing remarkable'...

btw: we LOVE the Electrified Garage fuse covers, not to mention the guys behind it - great crew!
that said, we're pretty firm on using OEM parts on all our packs, we'd only consider moving to the stainless once we're able to mimic the dye-pressed shape of the seal - the middle bulge on its top both increases the bending moment of the flat sheet steel, thus reduces bending/crushing/intrusion into the fuse directly below, and adds a few additional millimeters of space between the cover and the fuse. we're probably overthinking this one (in fact, we know we are, we're kinda OCD that way 😂 ) and absolutely no slight to EG fuse cover - again, we love it! :D
 
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to be honest, this level of corrosion - at least from the section in the pic above - looks relatively minor for a fuse cover and quite in line with the age, proximity to debris, etc, and of course the material itself, it is steel after all. obviously, the location and the implementation of the AC drain hose, the cabin air drip tray and the fuse cover are flawed - for example, see how that rubber sealant creates a moat around the fuse cover? just perfect for trapping water and road salt able to soak and work their way through the top... 😖 that's the most common issue we see with fuse covers from the Northeast - 4 alone this past month - all with varying degrees of corrosion in the fuse cover, one near fatally.

but overall, water ingress would NOT be our first concern with the fuse cover on your pack. certainly not from the pic above.

Yes, thought it looked reasonable good given age+location. Certainly not any confirmation of water ingress. Posted info so others can get a easy look. Would be interesting to see others that frequently park outside in wet elements and/or salted road regions.

(that 20 mV drop on that one brick you might want to see someone about however...)

Not sure anything can be done about the 20mV imbalance in module 10 and 2/3 of that in module 12 in my pack besides opening the pack and snoop around right? Maybe I'll get curious enough to find a way to poke around in there haha (reminder to others, deadly voltage!) @Chickenboy81 recently dropped and repaired his pack without a 2 post lift... used a pallet jack and pulled it out of the side... Must be tricky to align to go back in... might need some dollies + borescope for good connection alignment haha.

Northwest winters are wet, but without the salt, it just makes for a lot of pine needles and dirt build up in the rails -- without a doubt, the siderails on Northwest Teslas end up caked in dirt and crud, more than any of the others we've ever seen, it must be the constant drizzle and steady supply of organic material/rot on the roads. ;)

Might look at how to remove the side ski covers next to better clean out the stuffed road crud. Seems like another potentially worthy maintenance item.

Screenshot 2023-01-24 at 11.20.24 PM.png

But yes, of course all of these areas are covered by Tesla for 8 years and if cell failures occur within a few years after warranty... might just wait for cell failure to open pack and address the issues. AC drain mod is an easy preventive. Maybe the next best is just keep car garaged and avoid salted roads as much as possible but not everyone can do.
 
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removing ski rails probably requires the battery pack to be dropped as the rail bolts are tricky to access when it's up inside (and for some reason the factory loved putting on an extra helping, or two, of Loctite on these bolts) - or maybe it's because we always have the packs out when we take the rails off ;) Either way, not an insurmountable task, but with the service guide in hand, strict adherence to the safety measures and a solid rack to support the pack when you drop it, certainly doable.

with regards to your pack, really no need to open it up and snoop around. not sure what a visual inspection would really show you - the odds of visually locating the source of the delta are definitely not in your favor ;). if you send us a 5-10 min dump of the PT CAN data we should be able to give you a good sense of where things are at. (yes, with all this cloud software on hand you'd think we'd be able to provide a web based diagnostic tool for owners, right? <reprioritizes feature backlog>).

in the meantime, here's a quick rule of thumb: 5mV is equivalent to roughly at least 1Ah (it can be as little as 3-4 mV per Ah depending if you're nearer the middle of the SoC curve, but for purposes here, assume 5mV per Ah). That means that one brick is probably at least 4 Ah out of balance, give or take. Now, 4 Ah is probably still borderline for a BMS_u029 alert - we've seen capacity deltas on a single module as high as 15 Ah for the BMS_u029 / BMS_u018 Quinella. And of course, some packs can be out of balance more than 20 mV and chug along just fine.

but a quick glance at your distribution shows one brick well outside the distribution. (could you repost the graph for the broader audience to follow along?) which suggests a cell failure (or likely a pending failure in that brick). vs say a broader degradation across all the bricks with a higher standard deviation across the pack, but no one brick showing pathological behavior. and for what it's worth, we've seen as little 4-5 Ah deltas trigger a BMS_u029. As we've posted elsewhere - it's not the Ah delta itself that triggers the BMS_u029, but rather how it got there - for example, did it drop 4-5 Ah over a short period of time? is there noticeable self-discharge during rest? etc.

OK, fine, great, so what to do?

Don't do anything! Keep driving! #getoutanddrive

And don't worry, because your BMS is basically like Gordon Ramsey - it will be sure to tell you loud and clear when it's time to shutdown the kitchen. ;)

In the meantime, keep enjoying your Model S!
 
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removing ski rails probably requires the battery pack to be dropped as the rail bolts are tricky to access when it's up inside (and for some reason the factory loved putting on an extra helping, or two, of Loctite on these bolts) - or maybe it's because we always have the packs out when we take them off ;) Either way, not an insurmountable task, but with the service guide in hand, strict adherence to the safety measures and a solid rack to support the pack when you drop it, certainly doable.

haha thanks for the note. I'll wait until pack drop then..

with regards to your pack, really no need to open it up and snoop around. not sure what a visual inspection would really show you - the odds of visually locating the source of the delta are definitely not in your favor ;). if you send us a 5-10 min dump of the PT CAN data we should be able to give you a good sense of where things are at. (yes, with all this cloud software on hand you'd think we'd be able to provide a web based diagnostic tool for owners, right? <reprioritizes feature backlog>).

My CANBUS scans are via ScanMyTesla (SMT) so recorded session logs all formatted in .csv. Should I reach out in private on collection parameters for a 5-10min recorded session (drive? how aggressive? stop/go? parked and sitting idle?) and whether SMT's BMS and Battery section data log is sufficient. Should pay you guys for an analysis service :) And glad to document the process if Recell decides to offer analysis services.

BTW, also posted imbalance during a drive cycle. Unfortunately current SMT version for MS/MX continuously calculate imbalance by the app while polling brick voltages so shows huge imbalance swings during drive. Only "valid" imbalance is probably whenever charge/discharge load is relatively constant over the full 96 brick data polling window (looks like a few seconds)

Missed typed SMT with TMC/SMC in a few places in these posts. Can't edit/fix :(


in the meantime, here's a quick rule of thumb: 5mV is equivalent to roughly at least 1Ah (it can be as little as 3-4 mV per Ah depending if you're nearer the middle of the SoC curve, but for purposes here, assume 5mV per Ah). That means that one brick is probably at least 4 Ah out of balance, give or take. Now, 4 Ah is probably still borderline for a BMS_u029 alert - we've seen capacity deltas on a single module as high as 15 Ah for the BMS_u029 / BMS_u018 Quinella. And of course, some packs can be out of balance more than 20 mV and chug along just fine.

but a quick glance at your distribution shows one brick well outside the distribution. (could you repost the graph for the broader audience to follow along?) which suggests a cell failure (or likely a pending failure in that brick). vs say a broader degradation across all the bricks with a higher standard deviation across the pack, but no one brick showing pathological behavior. and for what it's worth, we've also seen 4-5 Ah deltas trigger a BMS_u029. As we've posted elsewhere - it's not the Ah delta itself that triggers the BMS_u029, but rather how it got there - for example, did it drop 4-5 Ah over a short period of time? is there noticeable self-discharge during rest? etc.

Here is the post where I shared a 30-80 SOC sweep across all 96 modules. I'll avoid duplicate pics/explanations here.


Here is a representative 21mV imbalance capture of module 1-13 (10,12 are only modules deviate far from others) from SMT @ ~70% SOC (correlates to 3.9v brick avg according to my SOC sweep dataset)

Screenshot_20221128-213559.jpg

Here is the spreadsheet for anyone who wants to make similar plot (contains full SOC sweep data set, original done in macOS Numbers app, excel version is the converted export)



3 other notes I should mention
  • Tried a couple recent Super Charge sessions (normally don't DC charge with all local trips) starts at ~60kW max in a 120kW rated location arriving with < 100mi. Seems slower than the past. I suppose could be BMS saying "don't charge too fast based on what I know" haha.
  • Seems to lose more range per day after last firmware update (2022.8.10.8). Probably > 5 miles/day. Car is plugged in all day with 240V 30-40A charger and set to 70% SOC limit (been that way for last few years). Maybe the latest firmware doesn't top off charge to the limit... don't know. I hear less contactor clicks compared to the past when in the garage but am also in garage less during the colder winter months.
  • Got GTW_w219_contactorImpedence alerts under [service-fix] when checking service mode. Not sure its related to any of this. GTW_w319_contactorImpedence
OK, fine, great, so what to do?

Don't do anything! Keep driving! #getoutanddrive

Because your BMS is like Gordon Ramsey - it will tell you loud and clear when it's time to shutdown the kitchen. ;)

In the meantime, keep enjoying your Model S!

haha right, its probably the only conclusion :)