Eastern Canada Superchargers

[Forty Creek]

Reading through these posts it sounds like we need a Supercharger in Cobourg to make the Toronto-Montreal/Ottawa route really stress free, even if Kingston comes online in the next week or two. People seem to rely on the Best Western in Cobourg... Time to lobby Tesla?

A number of us have posted and / or emailed Tesla about the need for a Supercharger around Cobourg. More voices certainly will help make it happen. Also, any suggestions for a specific site would be helpful.

 

[Chrisizzle]

I have followed this thread and can't make sense of the Cobourg request. From Supercharger to Supercharger, Toronto to Cobourg would only be 106km. That is way too close. Furthermore, it is east of Hwy 35/115 and wouldn't even assist with the Peterborough/Lindsay/cottage route.

I couldn't make sense of Cornwall for the same reason. Too close to Montreal for a Toronto trip and doesn't assist a route to Ottawa either.

The very first day I had with my Model S, I drove in the snow with heat on and above the speed limit from Toronto to my cottage north of Belleville. (So, equivalent distance to Kingston). I arrived with 80km to spare.

I understand everyone wants a Supercharger in their backyard but, requests like this make Canadian drivers seem unreasonable.

 

[Doug_G]

The trip from Lawrence to Kingston is actually pretty far under winter conditions. The 401 is a high speed highway, which doesn't help because it's unsafe to drive at optimal speeds (I once had to do 80 kph in my Roadster due to unexpected extreme temperatures, and even though traffic was light that was scary!).

The car's range is very temperature sensitive - you only lose a little at 0 degrees, but the impact is very substantial at -20C and continues to get worse at lower temperatures. You will see a 20% range loss at -20C, and that doesn't take into account battery pack and cabin heating.

If the car is already warm when you depart then pack and cabin heating is not a big problem... but if your car was cold soaked at -20C it will have a huge impact on your range. The car can use an extra 12 kW for over half an hour just for the heaters. I discovered that the hard way two years ago when I had to do an unplanned stop to charge (and the charger location was blocked by a gas car!). I was several hours late to my destination as a result, and I nearly had to abort my trip altogether. You definitely want to use the remote app preheat mode with the car plugged in before taking a long trip in the winter.

A second Supercharger somewhere around Trenton or Belleville really is necessary for severe winter conditions. People, especially those inexperienced with winter road trips, are going to fall short of the destination and end up on a flat bed.

 

[PoweredByRain]

I have followed this thread and can't make sense of the Cobourg request. From Supercharger to Supercharger, Toronto to Cobourg would only be 106km.

Yes, but the Toronto supercharger is inconvenient for people traveling east-west. What if you want to bypass Toronto entirely? Or if you're starting east of the DVP and didn't have time to fully charge before leaving? Take a look at all the Superchargers around Chicago - I suspect in the long run there will be a similar situation around Toronto.

 

[Jaff]

Chris, you can't make sense of it because you are from Toronto...we who want Coburg to have a SC are mainly those living West of Toronto...Niagara / Hamilton / Guelph, and North of Toronto...we do not wish to stop in Toronto for a supercharge as it takes a ridiculous amount of time to get to the Lawrence St. store from the 401 / 407 down the DVP "parking lot"...if we are travelling east, we just really want to get the "H" by Toronto...however, we will not be able to reach Kingston with a comfortable reserve in winter...

I have followed this thread and can't make sense of the Cobourg request. From Supercharger to Supercharger, Toronto to Cobourg would only be 106km. That is way too close. Furthermore, it is east of Hwy 35/115 and wouldn't even assist with the Peterborough/Lindsay/cottage route.

I couldn't make sense of Cornwall for the same reason. Too close to Montreal for a Toronto trip and doesn't assist a route to Ottawa either.

The very first day I had with my Model S, I drove in the snow with heat on and above the speed limit from Toronto to my cottage north of Belleville. (So, equivalent distance to Kingston). I arrived with 80km to spare.

I understand everyone wants a Supercharger in their backyard but, requests like this make Canadian drivers seem unreasonable.

 

[RAM_Eh]

I do believe the best spot east of Toronto would be in the Clarington area. As close as possible on the 401 but still west of the 115/35 exit North. This would allow a charge from those coming from Toronto supercharger 70KM and leave a 185 KM run east to Kinston.

This would be the ideal location for those going north to Peterborough and those heading west that want to bypass Toronto using the 407.

The best location would be on Bennett road (but there is no food there). An alternate location would be on the 115/35 at the McDonald's exit ( this would be 3-5KM off the 401).

 

[Depeche Mode]

Reading through these posts it sounds like we need a Supercharger in Cobourg to make the Toronto-Montreal/Ottawa route really stress free, even if Kingston comes online in the next week or two. People seem to rely on the Best Western in Cobourg... Time to lobby Tesla?

Yeah, Cobourg will certainly help but Kingston is in the real heart of the Québec-Windsor corridor... let's face it: if there was a Cobourg and no Kingston, we would have to Supercharge 2 times for Montréal - Toronto trip (Cornwall + Cobourg) instead of only 1 time with Kingston SC... Cobourg will be more useful for the '60 models or for some «in betweens» for Ottawa and Toronto...

 

[RiverBrick]

I do believe the best spot east of Toronto would be in the Clarington area.

Looking at the map, I tend to agree with you. Much closer to the Kingston/Woodstock mid-point than Cobourg. I'm all for skipping Toronto when heading West. Nothing personal against the city, but besides the heavy traffic surrounding the SpC site, I can see the location getting clogged between use by locals, the sales department, the service department, and the delivery team.

Buffalo is more reachable from Clarington/Oshawa than Cobourg as well.

 

[Peter_M]

Any word on when the 2 SC stalls at the Montreal store will go live? I'd use them Friday or Saturday if they are up.

 

[Chrisizzle]

I'd agree that our southern Ontario superchargers weren't well thought out. Looking at the USA map, most chargers seem to be out of the city because they are meant for road trippers and not daily users. Secondly, Kingston made sense as a single, one stop between Toronto and Montreal. However, with Cornwall in place, Belleville would have made more sense to split the drive into thirds.

Now we are stuck with Toronto and I think 'demanding' anything within 100km of that is silly. At best, it would save you 30-minutes in the worst traffic but it adds nothing to overall Canadian coverage. I think we'd all agree that the 'next' supercharger is better placed elsewhere. And I say 'next' because that is true for the next 20 superchargers. (Eg. Ottawa would be better than Cobourg. Peterborough would be better than Cobourg. Niagara Falls would be better than Cobourg. And so on for the next 20 chargers... And that's just Ontario...Medicine Hat would be better than Cobourg)

For those coming from the west who want to bypass Lawrence, something in Mississauga/Vaughan would still make more sense than Cobourg. However, then we have the same proximity issue with Barrie and Woodstock.

 

[Forty Creek]

Now we are stuck with Toronto and I think 'demanding' anything within 100km of that is silly.

@Jaff: For those coming from the west who want to bypass Lawrence, something in Mississauga/Vaughan would still make more sense than Cobourg.

The Toronto location is awkward to reach from the 401, and given the population of Burlington, Hamilton, Niagara region, 'asking' Tesla to consider another Supercharger within 100km of Toronto is entirely reasonable IMHO. For example, a Tesla owner from Hamilton driving to Kingston in the winter will need to stop in Toronto after only 80km of driving. 10 minutes down to Lawrence, 10 back, plus charging time just to make up 80km. This will likely be at the top of the charging 'taper' and therefore somewhat slower to charge. Also, these road trippers won't be able to take advantage of the 407 to quickly bypass Toronto traffic. Not sure how a Supercharger in Mississauga would make more sense than Cobourg in this example.
I think it is helpful to keep in mind that the Supercharger network is still in early days. As Tesla grows, there will be more charging stations needed in between major stopping points in order to make travel convenient for the majority of owners.

 

[PoweredByRain]

I'd agree that our southern Ontario superchargers weren't well thought out. Looking at the USA map, most chargers seem to be out of the city because they are meant for road trippers and not daily users.

I don't know about that. Of course "most" are outside the city, but Tesla doesn't seem to be too worried about avoiding being in the city as well. Look at LA, Denver, Chicago, New York - all have Superchargers "in the city", as well as many spread around the metropolitan area. Toronto and Montreal also have/will have chargers in the city.

There are plenty of examples of Superchargers opening up in seemingly nonsensical ways. It all makes sense in the long run, however. The link east of Las Vegas was way too far for comfort for a long, long time, until St George, UT opened. Opening Cornwall months before anything else within range is open does very few people any good. Take a look at the six chargers in Montana - they've been open for months, but the link to the west is missing one Supercharger and the link to the east is missing two. The missing links will I'm sure eventually be added, but for now there is an "island" which serves very few.

The limit here does not seem to be money, it just seems to be really difficult to deal with all the local issues so that sites are completed in order. I don't think it's that they're really bad at planning. Whatever the reason, I think in a metropolitan area as large as Toronto there will eventually be chargers all over, relatively close to each other, much like Chicago. (Under the assumption that Tesla survives). It's just a question of time.

 

[Ottawa too]

Supercharge the 401

Now we are stuck with Toronto and I think 'demanding' anything within 100km of that is silly. At best, it would save you 30-minutes in the worst traffic but it adds nothing to overall Canadian coverage. I think we'd all agree that the 'next' supercharger is better placed elsewhere. And I say 'next' because that is true for the next 20 superchargers. (Eg. Ottawa would be better than Cobourg. Peterborough would be better than Cobourg. Niagara Falls would be better than Cobourg. And so on for the next 20 chargers... And that's just Ontario...Medicine Hat would be better than Cobourg)

@Chrisizzle:

I agree that there has been poor planning in Ontario. The 401 as you probably know is the busiest highway in the world (if you believe Wikipedia). The volumes are staggering. Servicing the 401 properly, even if to excess, is going to make more drivers happy than Peterborough (although I personally would love that), Medicine Hat or even Ottawa (I'd love that too!). The S60 driver, or the S85 driver caught in the bumper to bumper grind that the 401 can become, will be struggling with range anxiety in the 260 km journey from Kingston to Toronto or vice versa. If you have a S60 and charge in Kingston to 80% and drive too fast or in the cold with 20% loss of range (top end), you only make it to Scarborough or Pickering. It is just a volume question I think. Everyone drives the 401, supercharge it and the largest Tesla market from Quebec to Windsor and Ottawa will happy. My apologies to Medicine Hat... lovely place.

 

[Chrisizzle]

I suppose it comes down to the following:

1) Do you think it's more important to service greater numbers on an already navigable route?
2) Do you think it's more important to open up completely new destinations?

Just thinking out loud now, I'd suggest #1 serves existing customers who know the process, how they use it and how to improve it. Whereas, #2 provides incentive to new customers. When I bought, I just wanted to know I could drive somewhere. I didn't care (and still don't) that my FREE power-up may be inconvenient. That's the trade I was prepared to make.

Using Barrie as an example, it will open up Collingwood, Wasaga, Muskoka, North Bay, Sudbury and I think that sells cars. If Cobourg were selected instead of Barrie, new customers would really just see the same 401 corridor and not be aware it was made marginally quicker.

I am firmly in the 'destinations' camp.

 

[inottawa]

I'm still not even sure why superchargers were placed in the heart of Toronto to begin with. I was hoping to make the drive from Ottawa to Cambridge soon and I'm afraid all the stalls in Toronto will be taken by locals when passing through.

Anyone here have any recent volume feedback at the TO superchargers?


Can't wait for Kingston. Seriously.

 

[KenN]

I'm still not even sure why superchargers were placed in the heart of Toronto to begin with.

Because it was easy? No need to negotiate with a property owner when they are the owner (or principal lessee)

 

[inottawa]

Because it was easy? No need to negotiate with a property owner when they are the owner (or principal lessee)

For sure, but if there was a set number of superchargers that were to be installed, and this counted against that count, it would have been better served out of the city (just read the Cal. threads). It just seems that our SC are so far and few between construction, that it would be a shame to see a corridor charger full all the time be people on their way home from work every day.

 

[Jaff]

Your comparison of using Barrie instead of Cobourg is invalid as Barrie is already slated to receive a Supercharger, and would not geographically speaking be a substitute for Barrie.

I'm not sure why you would disrespectfully refer to Supercharging needs of those West of Toronto as "silly"...

I suppose it comes down to the following:

1) Do you think it's more important to service greater numbers on an already navigable route?
2) Do you think it's more important to open up completely new destinations?

Just thinking out loud now, I'd suggest #1 serves existing customers who know the process, how they use it and how to improve it. Whereas, #2 provides incentive to new customers. When I bought, I just wanted to know I could drive somewhere. I didn't care (and still don't) that my FREE power-up may be inconvenient. That's the trade I was prepared to make.

Using Barrie as an example, it will open up Collingwood, Wasaga, Muskoka, North Bay, Sudbury and I think that sells cars. If Cobourg were selected instead of Barrie, new customers would really just see the same 401 corridor and not be aware it was made marginally quicker.

I am firmly in the 'destinations' camp.

 

[Doug_G]

Because it was easy? No need to negotiate with a property owner when they are the owner (or principal lessee)

This. They've often had difficulties negotiating with properties for a place to install Superchargers.

 

[sitter_k]

Because it was easy? No need to negotiate with a property owner when they are the owner (or principal lessee)

I doubt Tesla Owns the space, but perhaps the Mississauga Service location would be suitable for a supercharger or a couple HPWCs due to it's proximity to the 407. That would help service those trying to avoid the 401 traffic. I agree with the Lawrence ave. being a huge pain in the ass to get to. I'm not too sure if Tesla has a certain supply of Supercharger equipment and only handful is allocated to Ontario/Canada, or maybe the hang up is finding the real estate. If that is the case maybe the Toronto supercharger is more of flagship item for branding and was never really meant to be a key cog in the supercharger network. Any idea at how much it costs Tesla to supply and install the chargers?