Electric planes

[JRP3]

Elon: "Electrified transportation. Full electrification of transportation, including cars, planes, and ships."

New Elon Musk essay: Tesla CEO's thoughts on technology and humanity

A new Elon Musk essay published in China gives a glimpse into the Tesla CEO's thoughts on sustainability, robots, Neuralink, and SpaceX.

www.teslarati.com

 

[daniel]

Elon: "Electrified transportation. Full electrification of transportation, including cars, planes, and ships."

New Elon Musk essay: Tesla CEO's thoughts on technology and humanity

A new Elon Musk essay published in China gives a glimpse into the Tesla CEO's thoughts on sustainability, robots, Neuralink, and SpaceX.

www.teslarati.com

I'm glad he mentioned that "electric" airplanes may actually be conventional airplanes powered by fuels synthesized using electricity from solar and other clean energy sources. That's the way to go for sustainably powering airplanes. Batteries make no sense. Synthetic hydrocarbons are the way.

Same for ships. Although they can have PV cells to generate some electricity, batteries just don't make sense. It's not as bad as airplanes, but weight is significant in a ship, and crossing big oceans takes a LOT of energy. Synthetic fuels make more sense than batteries.

Of course, if you're not in a hurry, sails are the way to go.

 

[JRP3]

I'm glad he mentioned that "electric" airplanes may actually be conventional airplanes powered by fuels synthesized using electricity from solar and other clean energy sources.

Where did he say that? Are you confusing it with what he said about rockets?

Electrified transportation. Full electrification of transportation, including cars, planes, and ships. Electric rockets may be more difficult, but we may be able to manufacture the propellant used in rockets from sustainable energy sources.

 

[daniel]

Where did he say that? Are you confusing it with what he said about rockets?

Yep. You're right. I made a mistake. I'll give him half-credit for acknowledging the possibility of using sustainable energy to create liquid fuels from atmospheric carbon. IMO we'll be using such fuels for planes and ships long before battery-electric airplanes are anything more than hobbyist craft or very small, very short-range "puddle-jumpers" in niche markets.

And FWIW I think that truly-useful general-purpose humanoid robots are a hundred years away. Lots of tasks are performed by robots today (a washing machine is a kind of robot, as is a Rumba, and Tesla's own assembly factories are largely filled with robots) but we're nowhere near a household robot that can do the work of a housekeeper.

 

[JRP3]

IMO we'll be using such fuels for planes and ships long before battery-electric airplanes are anything more than hobbyist craft or very small, very short-range "puddle-jumpers" in niche markets.

Cell level energy density has more than doubled in the last 10 years. Elon thinks that around 400Wh/kg the opportunities for electric planes increases.

And FWIW I think that truly-useful general-purpose humanoid robots are a hundred years away.

I think less than 10.

 

[STS-134]

Cell level energy density has more than doubled in the last 10 years. Elon thinks that around 400Wh/kg the opportunities for electric planes increases.

Yeah...no. The energy density of jet fuel is about 12,000 Wh/kg. Of course, a substantial amount (about 50%) of the heat is never turned into useful work, but that still leaves you with around 6,000 Wh/kg worth of usable work. And batteries still lag behind by a factor of 15 at takeoff at 400 Wh/kg. As far as aircraft efficiency in terms of ability to carry payload, it's even worse, because fuel burned in flight decreases the weight of the aircraft, and thus its fuel burn, in later parts of the flight, whereas the weight of the batteries stays constant (in addition to being 15 times heavier to begin with). By the time the aircraft lands, the weight of the aircraft that is "fuel" might be hundreds of times heavier with batteries.

I think electric aircraft may have a role (for maintenance reasons) in short flights, like in replacing Hawaiian Airlines' Boeing 717 aircraft that it uses for inter-island flights. But that's a very small part of the global aviation market.

 

[JRP3]

Yeah...no.

Elon thinks that around 400Wh/kg the opportunities for electric planes increases.

Actually yes. An increase in energy density obviously increases the possibilities for electric planes. The only reason this thread exists is because the increased energy density of lithium ion over previous chemistry has created opportunities which previously were not there. Jets are not the only type of plane and focusing on them is similar to saying the original Tesla Roadster couldn't work because long haul Semis exist. Piston engine planes will be the initial target market.

 

[Electroman]

Yep. You're right. I made a mistake. I'll give him half-credit for acknowledging the possibility of using sustainable energy to create liquid fuels from atmospheric carbon. IMO we'll be using such fuels for planes and ships long before battery-electric airplanes are anything more than hobbyist craft or very small, very short-range "puddle-jumpers" in niche markets.

+1. Agreed. For long range airplanes and ships, we need a fuel with high energy density close to gasoline and that is not batteries. Synthetic fuels created thru renewable energy might be a good solution

 

[JRP3]

Not exactly a plane but this is very cool

This drone-inspired motorbike can fly at high speed for 40 minutes

The world's first flying bike made its debut at the Detroit Auto Show this week.

www.euronews.com

 

[wooter]

Air Canada buys 30 hybrid-electric airplanes, targets 2028 launch

Canada's largest airline is snapping up 30 hybrid-electric ES-30 airplanes made by Heart Aerospace of Sweden

electricautonomy.ca

 

[AudubonB]

… a fuel with high energy density close to gasoline and that is not batteries. Synthetic fuels created thru renewable energy might be a good solution.

Alas, not much of a solution, as the best “energy packages” are long-chain C-H molecules that so nicely explode when combined with atmospheric oxygen, creating….yep: CO2.

“Best”, for a given definition of that slippery term. There is, of course, Bromine Pentafluoride - BrF5, but it would be nice to leave on the Earth at least some ozone layer after one single flight, among other inconveniences.

 

[miimura]

Alas, not much of a solution, as the best “energy packages” are long-chain C-H molecules that so nicely explode when combined with atmospheric oxygen, creating….yep: CO2.

The whole point of Synfuels is to take the CO2 out of the environment to make the fuel so that the combustion on use is carbon neutral. You get to continue to use existing transportation systems (commercial aircraft for example) without releasing additional carbon into the environment. It is a half-solution, but it is a solution that has merit, quite unlike things like carbon sequestration attached to fossil fuel plants.

 

[RichAZ/CapeCod]

.... Batteries make no sense. ...

Well, as of this moment in time I believe you are correct. Energy density is simply not there. As for the future, well, I'm a bit more optimistic.

Rich
(who, as a child, flew helicopters in the NYPD as a sgt. and lt., a couple of centuries ago...)


Flight-line, NYPD Aviation Unit, Floyd Bennett Field, Brooklyn NY, December 1989.

 

[STS-134]

Alas, not much of a solution, as the best “energy packages” are long-chain C-H molecules that so nicely explode when combined with atmospheric oxygen, creating….yep: CO2.

You can produce arbitrarily long hydrocarbons from carbon monoxide and hydrogen. You can get hydrogen from water. And you can produce carbon monoxide from carbon dioxide, and you can get carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. When burned, the hydrocarbons produced in this way are just returning the carbon to where it came from, and therefore are carbon neutral, so long as the energy required to perform all of these steps came from a carbon neutral source.

 

[ggr]

Air Canada buys 30 hybrid-electric airplanes, targets 2028 launch

Canada's largest airline is snapping up 30 hybrid-electric ES-30 airplanes made by Heart Aerospace of Sweden

electricautonomy.ca

Hmm, 200km range on electricity, by the time it taxis, takes off, flies, lands, taxis, and recharges (article says 30-50 minutes), that's about two hours. I can drive 200km in 2 hours (Maybe 2.5 hours in Canadia), still have most of my charge left, and have the convenience of a vehicle at both ends. I don't think this plane is a win unless it's used in hybrid mode.

 

[STS-134]

Hmm, 200km range on electricity, by the time it taxis, takes off, flies, lands, taxis, and recharges (article says 30-50 minutes), that's about two hours. I can drive 200km in 2 hours (Maybe 2.5 hours in Canadia), still have most of my charge left, and have the convenience of a vehicle at both ends. I don't think this plane is a win unless it's used in hybrid mode.

It's less than 160 km but you can't drive from O‘ahu to Maui or from Kaua‘i to Moloka‘i unless you're driving a hovercraft.

 

[JRP3]

I don't think this plane is a win unless it's used in hybrid mode.

Which I expect it will be. Seems like green washing.

 

[jerry33]

Hmm, 200km range on electricity, by the time it taxis, takes off, flies, lands, taxis, and recharges (article says 30-50 minutes), that's about two hours. I can drive 200km in 2 hours (Maybe 2.5 hours in Canadia), still have most of my charge left, and have the convenience of a vehicle at both ends. I don't think this plane is a win unless it's used in hybrid mode.

This is no different than ICE planes. When I used to travel that distance (years ago) in Canada, I also drove. By the time you waste at the airports, 500 km is more like the break-even miles for drive vs fly.

 

[AudubonB]

The comments about using carbon sourced from other than fossil fuels are quite correct. I’ve been awake since before 2am, and up since 4

 

[daniel]

Not exactly a plane but this is very cool

This drone-inspired motorbike can fly at high speed for 40 minutes

The world's first flying bike made its debut at the Detroit Auto Show this week.

www.euronews.com

That is SOOOOO cool! I want one. But they cost 780,000 euros. That's about the same in dollars. A shade over three-quarters of a million dollars. For a flying motorcycle.

Guess I'll stick to my outrigger canoe. At least that way I get exercise. And I can swim during rest breaks.

But I sure would love to try out the flying motorcycle.