help...looking for the thread that discusses Elon's FSD tweets...
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Elon: FSD Beta tweets
- Thread starter Terminator857
- Start date
Is Twitter still a thing? I thought it was finally, mercifully shut down after Musk took over. I thought I saw some people here mentioning bankruptcy.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
The diagram shows human+machine is safer at both ends of the graph.... but that complacency can cause a "less safe" condition in the awkward middle part.
And the side of that middle will vary between systems designs, safeguards, monitoring, etc...
All of which directly contradicts your claim it is always less safe than just a human.
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They literally do claim that.
They claim they developed TWO systems that EACH can fully autonomously drive the car.
One of which is vision only. The exact thing you just denied they ever said.
And that their long term plan is to install both for extra additional safety- even though each can, independently, drive autonomously.
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You read the research like the devil reads the bible... The middle is the only relevant part - deployment and development is 99% of the journey. 100% of it is less safe than when a human is driving due to complacency. The human adds safety in the very beginning as she doesn't trust the system when it sucks (where FSD beta is now). When the system is better than a human it is an autonomous system, and the human adds nothing. Do you agree with these statements?
Absolutely not. Can drive, sure. Not autonomously. They claimed to have about 1000 miles per DE - which I am sure you can understand isn't enough to remove the driver... They have clearly stated over and over again over the last 2-3 years that the camera only system is for L2 deployments and that their autonomous efforts are the combined stack. MobileEye have no plans of deploying or selling a camera only system for autonomous driving. Never had either, to the best of my knowledge.
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Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Except, it's not.
Lemme remind you what you said again since you seem to have forgotten.
Not "less safe during one specific period, but then safer both before and after that period" which is what your actual "evidence" showed.
You said less safe. Period.
You got caught making up nonsense, then caught providing a source contradicting your nonsense, now you keep trying to pretend none of this happened.
Yes, so a supervised system UNDER VERY SPECIFIC AND NARROW CONDITIONS can be less safe.
And it can also be MORE safe under most other conditions.
And there's a slew of ways you can shift how big the middle part of the curve is.
It's almost like your blanket statement was utter nonsense and you still haven't realized it despite presenting evidence it's nonsense...it's pretty hilarious
Except yes autonomously.
Which is another term you appear to keep making your own nonsense definitions up for while ignoring the real ones--- like the last time you told us it meant NEVER HAVE AN ACCIDENT.
Meaning humans can't drive autonomously apparently
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EVNow
Well-Known Member
LOL.
Blader complained that my response was "snippiness".
Ok Blader, prove that James has "0 Machine Learning Experience". If you can't prove, apologize to James.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Why ... Blader and you apparently already know he has not worked in ML, but somehow has worked building CNN.
Why don't you and Blader share your CV here ... ?
Why? So that people that listen to him can value his information and also you demanded that Blader should apologize to him and "prove" he never worked professionally with this. The easiest thing would be if Douma told us, right?
I don't have a youtube channel where I parrot Elon's quasi science for a living, apparently tricking plenty of uninformed folks here.
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No I didn’t…
He doesn’t… apologize? Lol I make debunk myth videos of his lack of knowledge… He should be apologizing to all the experts out there for pretending to be an expert while being completely oblivious. If I had more free time my video count on him would reach 100. If you think James is an expert, then it says a lot about you.
That’s actually Spacecon. He is reporting any post that he doesn’t agree with. Such a valuable contributor.
There will be no production Mobileye AV that uses cameras alone, they don't think that is safe enough. But their approach is to develop 2 independent subsystems that can function independently of one another to achieve a high MTBF, in case one system FAILS.
It is not a camera only approach. It is a true redundancy approach using camera, radar and lidar.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
But of course that wasn't the claim Mobileyes systems existence debunks.
He claimed- wrongly- that nobody but Elon thinks vision only can drive autonomously.
Mobileye does, and says so in the screen shot I showed you.
They are choosing to add a SECOND system that can also, by itself, drive autonomously with lidar and radar, to improve overall safety.
But each can, individually, drive autonomously. As they literally tell you in the screen shot I posted.
No not really. Their L4 system relies on cameras, lidars and radars.
There are 2 companies committed to using only cameras to achieve fully autonomous driving, Tesla and Wayve. There are other companies working on that too like Baidu and Toyota but they also have systems that use Lidar and radar as well.
Mobileye uses camera only for ADAS. Not anything beyond L2.
They are not "choosing to add a second system", it is their fundamental design intent to achieve a high MTBF. They aren't choosing to also use a Map, it is a fundamental safety critical design intent.
They're not driving independently. There is ONE driving policy that takes all inform from independent and combined world model from all sensors and makes driving decision based on all sensor data.
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Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Yes, really.
I mean, it's in the picture.
I even circled it in red.
Mobileye claims they have "An AV that can drive on CAMERAS ALONE"
Which words, specifically, are confusing you in understanding this claim?
Which seems to even further debunk the original claim that NOBODY but Elon claims vision only can drive a car autonomously--- so it's weird you're still defending that guys point or something?
Perhaps you should read the thing you posted. They have 2 development AVs, and they mean that in literal terms, they are two separate teams working independently to create each subsystems to create what they call "True Redundancy".
In their actual portfolio of solutions to customers, anything beyond L2 uses combined Camera, Lidar and Radar. Mobileye does not believe camera alone is safe enough for AV.
Not defending anyone, Mobileye is not one of them. Is my point.
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Knightshade
Well-Known Member
I did.
It states they have developed- past tense- two systems.
EACH is capable of autonomous driving by itself.
One of them using cameras only.
It's really not that hard, so it's weird people keep trying to complicate it beyond those basic facts.
There was no "it must be sold as is to the public" stipulation in the claim these facts debunk either.
As a reminder, here's the original, now debunked claim:
"They do NOT claim autonomy on cameras."
That's it.
Except they DO claim autonomy on cameras.
Nothing about "they claim autonomy on cameras and will sell you that system" nor "they claim autonomy on cameras and aren't planning to augment it to be even safer beyond being able to drive on its own with just cameras"
Simply that NOBODY besides Elon was claiming they could (or would) do autonomy with just cameras.
Mobileye is. So are several others you mentioned.
I think someone posted this earlier- but here's Mobileye demoing their camera only autonomous vehicle in Munich, after having previously done so in Israel
Watch How our Camera-Only AV Handles the Streets of Munich | Mobileye Blog
What works in Israel can work just as effectively in Germany, or indeed anywhere else, thanks to the power of REM™.
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The problem is your inability to accept you are wrong. There will be no Mobileye AV that uses just cameras, they have 2 development platforms one that uses just cameras and another that uses just Lidar and Radar (and one front camera for traffic sign detection) but we don't go claiming that mobile eye has an AV that drives using just Lidar and Radar. There will be no consumer Mobileye AV that uses only cameras as it is not deemed safe enough.
Yes there is. Mobileye themselve state their production ready AV will combine both platforms into one to make a true redundant AV with high MTBF.
Knightshade
Well-Known Member
Probably because I'm not?
Except, there is one.
I just posted a video of one- driving autonomously in Munich. Which contains a link to one driving autonomously in Israel.
Again there was no "must also be sold to consumers" caveat on his debunked claim that nobody was claiming they could do camera-only autonomy.
Mobileeye did. And does. And has demoed cars doing it.
That they don't plan to sell that system to the public doesn't change the fact it exists and drives autonomously and thus the original claim was wrong.
Mobileye said:
Do you agree they claim camera only and that it's an autonomous vehicle?
Because if you do then his claim is wrong, and mine is right.
It's as simple as that.
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