Elon says AWD and Perf orders start at end of next week!

[ModelNforNerd]

Wow! I thought I was obsessive when I checked mine three times. I must become more diligent!!

I've decided to not look at it directly.


Pretty sure when it goes live this site, Electrek, Twitter, Reddit, and even Mainstream Media will be able to tell me it's time to log in and peek. LOL

 

[lklundin]

While this release is exciting news I'm sure most CURRENT model 3 owners would be much more excited to hear their putting effort forth on getting them things promised or big bugs fixed. I.E. Summon feature, phone connection issues; I guess they already have my money though, so why focus on me?

Yes, why focus on you?

Except for the fact that Tesla puts plenty of effort (i.e. infinitely more than other manufacturers) into improving already sold vehicles, you have to realize that for every current M3 owner, about 10 new ones will come before the current reservation list has been processed.

So you can be plenty optimistic in spite of the fact that you are only focusing on yourself.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Yes, why focus on you?

Except for the fact that Tesla puts plenty of effort (i.e. infinitely more than other manufacturers) into improving already sold vehicles, you have to realize that for every current M3 owner, about 10 new ones will come before the current reservation list has been processed.

So you can be plenty optimistic in spite of the fact that you are only focusing on yourself.

I have a 2014 CPO S85 that still gets updates.


Pretty sure any other OEM just wants you to buy a new car at that point.

 

[jbcarioca]

I've decided to not look at it directly.


Pretty sure when it goes live this site, Electrek, Twitter, Reddit, and even Mainstream Media will be able to tell me it's time to log in and peek. LOL

Well, I was fourth in the queue to reserve, and I flew from Rio de Janeiro to Miami to do it. What is a few checks per day in comparison? It's worth almost nothing but I think I was probably number 1 for M3 for Brazil delivery, Early 2019 it says. That is the one I'm most eager for; after all the US one is only replacing a P85D.

My suspicion is that a good many present Tesla owners want a smaller car, not a lesser one. Most of us want to have higher performance. Then there is a large mode taht is very price sensitive. So far, just like BMW 3-Series distributions, or so I suspect.

 

[ModelNforNerd]

Well, I was fourth in the queue to reserve, and I flew from Rio de Janeiro to Miami to do it. What is a few checks per day in comparison? It's worth almost nothing but I think I was probably number 1 for M3 for Brazil delivery, Early 2019 it says. That is the one I'm most eager for; after all the US one is only replacing a P85D.

My suspicion is that a good many present Tesla owners want a smaller car, not a lesser one. Most of us want to have higher performance. Then there is a large mode taht is very price sensitive. So far, just like BMW 3-Series distributions, or so I suspect.

Yea, I get it.....I just know it would drive me crazy to be checking my account that many times a day.

 

[MXWing]

So when is end of week??!?

Let's hope its Friday in Kiribati UTC+14:00!

 

[shrspeedblade]

I was thinking about calling in sick for the rest of the week.....so there the weeks over now let's have the goods!

 

[EVDRVN]

In the Model 3, I'm not sure there's going to be much efficiency gain with AWD. In the Model S, there were several places where AWD could result in an efficiency gain:

• Going from the large 1st-generation motor in the RWD to the dual smaller 2nd-generation motors in the AWD.
• The induction motors in the Model S are lower efficiency to begin with.
• The ability to gear the front motor different from the rear motor, and torque sleep the rear motor when cruising.
• The Model S already weighs a lot, the additional weight from a 2nd motor is proportionally less.

These opportunities are mostly absent in the Model 3:

• The PMSR motor in the Model 3 is already a very efficient motor.
• The PMSR motor only has a very limited ability to torque sleep due to the permanent magnets inside.
• The 2nd motor will add a proportionally larger amount of weight to the Model 3.

These factors make me think that the efficiency gain from AWD in the Model 3 will be minimal.

Tesla could gain a much better ability to torque sleep the rear motor and gain the efficiency that way if the rear motor became an induction motor rather than a PMSR, and indeed this is what I expect them to do with the performance version of the Model 3. But for cost reasons, I think the non-performance version will use two of the PMSRs, and gain very little efficiency.

It's going to be a smaller induction motor in the front and the same rear motor with a smaller inverter for about 10-20Kw more output on the AWD version. It will likely be less efficient than the RWD model by about 10 miles on the LR version, possibly less after tweaks.

 

[Trips]

So when is end of week??!?

Let's hope its Friday in Kiribati UTC+14:00!

For most people it would be between Friday the 18th and Sunday the 20th. Since Elon's work weeks are a little longer then most I would guess sometime around the 26th.

 

[mongo]

The PMSR motor only has a very limited ability to torque sleep due to the permanent magnets inside.

Tesla could gain a much better ability to torque sleep the rear motor and gain the efficiency that way if the rear motor became an induction motor rather than a PMSR, and indeed this is what I expect them to do with the performance version of the Model 3. But for cost reasons, I think the non-performance version will use two of the PMSRs, and gain very little efficiency.

Where did you read that PMSR can't torque sleep? These are not stepper type motors with cogging torque. Full permanent magnet motors can coast just fine, as can pure switched reluctance. As long as the back EMF is less that the pack voltage, there is no braking load.

It's going to be a smaller induction motor in the front and the same rear motor with a smaller inverter for about 10-20Kw more output on the AWD version. It will likely be less efficient than the RWD model by about 10 miles on the LR version, possibly less after tweaks.

Going to AC Induction would be a step backwards in terms of efficiency and cooling. With the PMSR, they can drive both to reduce I^2 losses without taking a hit in rotor losses. Or use one and sleep the other.

 

[Krash]

It's going to be a smaller induction motor in the front and the same rear motor with a smaller inverter for about 10-20Kw more output on the AWD version. It will likely be less efficient than the RWD model by about 10 miles on the LR version, possibly less after tweaks.

If you only torque sleep the front when you are not accelerating does that mitigate the drawbacks of driving in snow and ice in a RWD?

 

[Daniel in SD]

Aren't induction motors cheaper to manufacture than PMSR? If the induction motor is only used during hard acceleration there would be virtually no efficiency hit. With that approach it would make sense to put the PMSR motor in the front and the induction in the rear.
I think the cooling problem would be the only real downside but that would only present itself in track conditions.
Anyway we're going to find out very soon! The suspense is killing me.
The induction motor is the design actually invented by Nikola Tesla
Here's the blog post where they go over the tradeoffs: Induction Versus DC Brushless Motors
They do say that part load efficiency suffers as you make DC brushless motors larger.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

Where did you read that PMSR can't torque sleep? These are not stepper type motors with cogging torque. Full permanent magnet motors can coast just fine, as can pure switched reluctance. As long as the back EMF is less that the pack voltage, there is no braking load.

PMSR can torque sleep, but not nearly as efficiently as an induction motor. While there would be no braking load from the electrical back EMF, the permanent magnets cause hysteresis and eddy current losses in the magnetic path. Unless those losses are less than the efficiency gained by the torque sleep, it's not worth trying to do torque sleep.

I would think that permanent magnet motor would have less of this problem because the hysteresis and eddy current losses are limited to the magnetic circuit within the stator, since the rotor is the permanent magnet.

Pure switched reluctance has no permanent magnets, therefore no hysteresis or eddy current losses while deenergized, and so can torque sleep with no issues, similar to induction motors.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

Aren't induction motors cheaper to manufacture than PMSR? If the induction motor is only used during hard acceleration there would be virtually no efficiency hit. With that approach it would make sense to put the PMSR motor in the front and the induction in the rear.
I think the cooling problem would be the only real downside but that would only present itself in track conditions.

I agree with this approach. Also, the high torque of the induction motor can then be used on the rear axle where staggered tires can give more traction, and during a high acceleration, weight transfers to the rear anyway, so you can't get as much power to the ground from the front axle. Combine this with the efficiency gains by torque sleeping the induction motor during cruising, and I think you have a rear/induction, and front/PMSR configuration that would be ideal.

 

[GatorGuy]

Aren't induction motors cheaper to manufacture than PMSR? If the induction motor is only used during hard acceleration there would be virtually no efficiency hit. With that approach it would make sense to put the PMSR motor in the front and the induction in the rear.
I think the cooling problem would be the only real downside but that would only present itself in track conditions.
Anyway we're going to find out very soon! The suspense is killing me.
The induction motor is the design actually invented by Nikola Tesla
Here's the blog post where they go over the tradeoffs: Induction Versus DC Brushless Motors
They do say that part load efficiency suffers as you make DC brushless motors larger.

Man I hope they do not use an induction motor in the 3-PD. If the only benefit is cost, then you are using the more expensive motors in the cheaper car and less expensive motors in the more expensive P car? What sense does that make? And you completely take away the ability of the car to be driven hard.

 

[Garlan Garner]

I was thinking about calling in s

Man I hope they do not use an induction motor in the 3-PD. If the only benefit is cost, then you are using the more expensive motors in the cheaper car and less expensive motors in the more expensive P car? What sense does that make? And you completely take away the ability of the car to be driven hard.

However....if the more expensive car can accelerate faster...ie. better performance...then....?

Bugatti? Porsche? Paganini? Lamborghini? = performance - and priced accordingly. lol

 

[Garlan Garner]

I was thinking about calling in sick for the rest of the week.....so there the weeks over now let's have the goods!

I'm already sick for the rest of the week. It will start tomorrow.

However I will definitely be well enough to click on the Tesla website. lol

 

[commasign]

I feel like a crack addict hitting refresh every 5 minutes on electrek, reddit, TMC forums, etc.,

 

[Garlan Garner]

I feel like a crack addict hitting refresh every 5 minutes on electrek, reddit, TMC forums, etc.,

You already have 2 Teslas.

Imagine what us no tesla havin folks are going through. lol

 

[Garlan Garner]

Hmmmm....... all buttons checked w/tax......$90k? $80k?