Elon & Twitter

[Big Dog]

Those are all free speech. There is a gulf od difference between free speech and ethics.



But that is the crux of Twitter issue - and Elon doesn't seem to understand this. He thinks everyone should just grow a "thick skin" as he told his black employees do when they complained about racism.

You can't grow a "thick skin" and take abuse all day long. You would much rather quit and spend your free time elsewhere - where you are not abused and harassed all the time.

Moreover - advertisers will not want to spend money on platforms that are full of hate speech.

So - either Elon can have his free speech "town square" or a healthy, prosperous "town square". He can't have both. Afterall how many of us would go to a place that is full of "riffraff" going at each other using abusive, foul language ?

It's not necessarily either/or. Elon could maintain Twitters' current moderation policies, for example, with an opt-in button for those that prefer that moderated content. Presumably advertisers would stay here. (At a minimum, Twitter should recognize that blocking a major US daily newspaper -- not named the Enquirer -- is beyond dumb, and at least allow those thru the system.)

Then he could add an opt-out button for those that prefer no-holds barred discussions. (And advertisers would go this direction at their own risk.)

In the meantime, the team keeps working to develop AI to ban bots and other non-human posts.

 

[advocate8]

Imagine dojo being fed with Twitter data.

Imagine the impact that will have on Twitter to detect bots, understand viral human behavior, identify abusive content, etc.

Imagine the impact that Twitter data will have on NN that can be plugged into Optimus robots.

So many synergies. Wow.

Those are all free speech. There is a gulf od difference between free speech and ethics.



But that is the crux of Twitter issue - and Elon doesn't seem to understand this. He thinks everyone should just grow a "thick skin" as he told his black employees do when they complained about racism.

You can't grow a "thick skin" and take abuse all day long. You would much rather quit and spend your free time elsewhere - where you are not abused and harassed all the time.

Moreover - advertisers will not want to spend money on platforms that are full of hate speech.

So - either Elon can have his free speech "town square" or a healthy, prosperous "town square". He can't have both. Afterall how many of us would go to a place that is full of "riffraff" going at each other using abusive, foul language ?

Also... how much town square do we need? Internet is one giant-ass town square.
What there IS a shortage of is people who will STFU. Why does everyone have to spout opinions like a firehose?

 

[Artful Dodger]

I will be surprised if Elon DOESN"T walk away from the deal. The misrepresentations, revealed in recent TWTR earnings, are significant enough to justify NOT paying the break-up fee of $1B. I would get into more elaborations on other reasons he will walk, but they would begin to cross the political line.

Pardon, this really needs to be archived here, before its gets buried in Main.

Care to provide any more color? Or links?

EDIT: (linked above, thanks to O.P.)

Wasteland Capital on Twitter: "The $TWTR earnings report seems to say “Elon could have waited six months and saved $20bn buying us more cheaply”? It’s not a business, it’s a $ giveaway party to some lucky employees. The cost explosion is real. I also keep forgetting how small the user base in the US is. https://t.co/grzv3k4zwU" / Twitter

 

[EVNow]

It's not necessarily either/or. Elon could maintain Twitters' current moderation policies, for example, with an opt-in button for those that prefer that moderated content. Presumably advertisers would stay here. (At a minimum, Twitter should recognize that blocking a major US daily newspaper -- not named the Enquirer -- is beyond dumb, and at least allow those thru the system.)

Doesn't matter - you will still have a lot of issues with moderation.

An example would be - I want to see left twitter by what Twitter might consider "fringe" - but not at the same time be abused by right or neo-liberal twitter. So, you might say - let Twitter allow particular "in-group" non-moderated content. But then you have to contend with spam or mis-identified content.

Ofcourse there will be endless cribbing about how something that should be mainstream was moderated and pushed to "fringe". You will hear that endlessly on both Fox & MSNBC.

I think the best Elon can hope to do is to have an open algorithm to moderate (that again people will endlessly crib about). But I do hope Twitter can atleast get strict about bots and about not allowing violent speech. Even here there will always be false positives and false negatives. There will never be a perfect moderation or remove violent speech solution.

Myanmar genocide was mainly orchestrated through Facebook. Most of India's hatred and violence against minority Muslims is now carried out through Whatsapp.

A Genocide Incited on Facebook, With Posts From Myanmar’s Military (Published 2018)

With fake pages and sham accounts, the military targeted the mostly Muslim Rohingya minority group, said former military officials, researchers and civilian officials.

www.nytimes.com

ps : Some of you think "misinformation" is ok. But misinformation can have deadly consequences. Think of Pizzagate that made a lunatic target an actual Pizza shop. Or a simple misinformation message that doesn't call for actual violence against but can still result in violence against individuals who are the target of the misinformation. As an ex-CEO of Reddit wrote about Elon & Twitter - people are infinitely inventive in circumventing moderation to achieve their ends. They don't care about "free speech" - they just want to hurt their (perceived) enemies.

 

[mongo]

Those are all free speech. There is a gulf of difference between free speech and ethics.



But that is the crux of Twitter issue - and Elon doesn't seem to understand this. He thinks everyone should just grow a "thick skin" as he told his black employees do when they complained about racism.

You can't grow a "thick skin" and take abuse all day long. You would much rather quit and spend your free time elsewhere - where you are not abused and harassed all the time.

Moreover - advertisers will not want to spend money on platforms that are full of hate speech.

So - either Elon can have his free speech "town square" or a healthy, prosperous "town square". He can't have both. Afterall how many of us would go to a place that is full of "riffraff" going at each other using abusive, foul language ?

Way to take two words out of context and change the meaning...

“Part of not being a huge jerk is considering how someone might feel who is part of [a] historically less represented group. Sometimes these things happen unintentionally, in which case you should apologize. In fairness, if someone is a jerk to you, but sincerely apologizes, it is important to be thick-skinned and accept that apology.”

 

[EVNow]

“Part of not being a huge jerk is considering how someone might feel who is part of [a] historically less represented group. Sometimes these things happen unintentionally, in which case you should apologize. In fairness, if someone is a jerk to you, but sincerely apologizes, it is important to be thick-skinned and accept that apology.”

It is not for Elon to decide whether I should accept "since apology" or not. His only job is to make sure the work-place is free of harassment.

 

[mongo]

It is not for Elon to decide whether I should accept "since apology" or not. His only job is to make sure the work-place is free of harassment.

And what part of an unintentional, apologized for, offense is harassment?
Recall, your original claim was the Elon said people should grow a thick skin and take abuse all day.

 

[Knightshade]

 

[EVNow]

And what part of an unintentional, apologized for, offense is harassment?

Those are all his words - doesn't mean that is what the victim feels. Remember "unintentional" is highly subjective. It is not uncommon for someone to claim their offence was unintentional and they are "sincerely apologizing" when caught - only to repeat it soon afterwards when they are sure not to get caught.

Moreover - this is the same guy who threatened to fire all the interns lined up to get coffee. So his bar for firing or taking strict action is quite low. But when it comes to racist comments he lectures victims on how to behave rather than take strict action on perpetrators. This is how a system that is unfair behaves - it always reduces the severity of majoritarian offences (this is how all these years people got away by making demeaning comments about women in workplace too). Elon was born and brought up in a very privileged situation as a fairly well-to-do white family in Apartheid South Africa. Are we sure his sympathies aren't more with the oppressors rather than the victims ?

In anycase - that email was offensive enough that I remember it after all these years. Even though I have never been in the situation the victim was in.

This whole exchange also goes to show how difficult moderation is.

 

[heltok]

Many believe that Mr.Musk is a genius and a wonderful creator, and highly gifted in specific areas. I believe that, he is a unique and highly intelligent individual..What will happen with Twitter, I don't think it will change that much..for economic reasons. What many do not understand is that Mr.Musk suffers from Asperger's Syndrome, a form of Autism Spectrum Disorder. It is a developmental disorder. Young people with Asperger's Syndrome have a difficult time relating to others socially and their behavior and thinking patterns can be rigid and repetitive.
Asperger syndrome is a condition on the autism spectrum, with generally higher functioning.
People with this condition may be socially awkward and have an all-absorbing interest in specific topics.
Communication training and behavioral therapy can help people with the syndrome learn to socialize more successfully.
How this plays out will be interesting to see.

As someone with Asperger I think calling it a disorder is degrading. It’s a difference with some pros and cons and things it helps to be aware of, but if proportions of asperger/neurotypical was different we might think neurotypical people had a disorder. This is satire, but imo it might help you understand your own perspective by getting it mirrored from the other side:


Understanding Neurotypicality

Neurotypicality is a pervasive developmental condition, probably present since birth, in which the affected person sees the world in a very strange manner. It is a puzzle; a enigma that traps those so affected in a lifelong struggle for social status and recognition. Neurotypical individuals almost invariably show a triad of impairments, consisting of inability to think independently of the social group, marked impairment in the ability to think logically or critically, and inability to form special interests (other than in social activity). It is my hope that this article will help us understand the very different world of the neurotypical.

Neurotypical individuals show difficulty in forming an individual identity, or in thinking outside of the bounds of the accepted norms of their social groups. It appears that each group a neurotypical belongs to will have its own set of “official” opinions, and each neurotypical within that group is expected to adopt those beliefs. As strange as it sounds, they generally do so very readily, and are not hesitant at all to help enforce those beliefs and ensure group homogeneity of opinion. There appears to be an innate drive for the neurotypical to fit in with groups in that manner, and their own innate opinions and desires are modified automatically to fit the group ideal. This bizarre lack of independence explains the tendency for neurotypicals to engage in fads of various sorts, or for the existence of certain trends. Neurotypicals will change the way they talk or dress according to these trends, and other neurotypicals will admire and imitate such “trendy” behavior. As such, neurotypicals are easy prey for TV commercials or other means of advertising that seek to portray the purchase or use of various products as socially desirable or “cool.”

The need for neurotypical individuals to “jump on” the latest trend is a function of their excessive level of concern of how they are perceived by others. Neurotypicals form their self-image based at least as much on the opinions of their peers as they do on their own opinions. They do not perceive themselves as individuals in the manner that you or I do; they see themselves as individual members of a group, but in practice, the opinions of others weigh heavily upon them, and there is a great drive to obtain the acceptance and admiration of others around them, including complete strangers. There is a built-in tendency for neurotypicals to blend in, to become “one of the herd,” so to speak. Most of them never realize how much their opinions are dictated by the group. They want the things that the group deems desirable, and they internalize that desire so fully that it feels to them as if it was an internally-motivated desire.

The overdeveloped social centers of the neurotypical brain are also responsible for their odd, inefficient communication style. We’ve all seen the strange tendency neurotypicals have to hide their true communicative intent beneath layers of often contradictory statements. They tend to state things implicitly rather than explicitly, and with a level of vagarity that often results in miscommunication. This appears to be an outgrowth of the neurotypical person’s desire to maintain popularity and social status; they seem to believe that by stating potentially annoying or offensive things indirectly, their popularity will be better maintained. This obsessive concern with social standing makes communication with neurotypicals rather difficult at times. They are incapable of expressing things directly, in a manner that can be easily and unambiguously interpreted by anyone that knows the language. They are also limited in their capacity to interpret statements directly without trying to find hidden meanings in them; they often misunderstand the most basic statements in this way.

People with neurotypicality tend to communicate in a very vague manner. They make guesses as to the level of knowledge of the listener, and omit parts that the listener is presumed to know. It is rather obvious that this guessing will often be wrong. Unfortunately, the listener that does not understand will generally not ask for clarification of such ambiguities, for fear of the speaker thinking that he is stupid or ignorant. As is usually the case with neurotypicals, image and status is more important than effective communication and the truth in general. Communication between neurotypicals is very limited in this way, and the fear of being seen as stupid prevents either party from verifying the content of the conversation. As such, most miscommunication goes undetected by at least one, if not all, neurotypicals that had engaged in such a conversation.

The neurotypical individual typically has a very limited capacity for logic or rational thought. The most recent research on the topic suggests that neurotypical people are not able to separate their emotions from their logic, and they often confuse the two. This is an obvious explanation for the sometimes appalling illogicality evidenced in neurotypical behavior. Neurotypicals typically exhibit very limited critical thought, and they are easily led to believe some rather illogical things. Sadly, most societal positions that require logic and rational thought are occupied by neurotypicals, which is a function of their sheer numbers more than any fitness for the job. Such jobs include important functions like jurors, legislators, judges, voters, doctors, and many others. If their herd mentality did not result in excessive rates of reproduction, their numbers would be smaller, and they would be of more use in job titles like salesperson, receptionist, cashier, and others where rational thought is less emphasized than social interaction.

Neurotypicals have a very limited ability to concentrate on one topic for great lengths of time, or repeatedly. The apparent absence of special interests in neurotypicals is notable. Their concentrations on normal areas of interest like computers, machines, scientific interests, history, or other academic subjects, are limited, and are short in duration as well as relatively infrequent. It appears that nearly all neurotypicals share one singular special interest, and that is socializing. This is the only activity that the person with neurotypicality can engage in for more than short periods of time. The stereotyped neurotypical mannerism of “chatting,” or communicating verbally with others even where no relevant or useful information is exchanged, is notable, and can be observed very often in neurotypicals that are engaging in perseverative social behavior. Why the neurotypical mind is limited in its flexibility insofar as selection of a special interest is not known at this time. This social interest is not terribly useful as far as society in general is concerned, and the neurotypical is unlikely to be capable of significant innovation, or of fostering societal advancement.

Without significant intervention, neurotypicals will continue to be dependent on us for generations to come. Unfortunately, the neurotypical herd mentality results in an excessive rate of birth of offspring that are genetically predisposed to be neurotypical, and as such the incidence of neurotypicality remains frighteningly high. Fortunately, the percentage of neurotypical births has been in decline recently, although it is still far too high for comfort. As long as the numbers of neurotypicals are so high, it is unlikely that they will allow us to institute any remediative efforts to help them overcome their disability. We may think it is so sad to see neurotypical children being trained to maintain a group mentality and to forsake true individualism, but at this point it is unlikely that the neurotypical parents of these children will be able to overcome their aforementioned logic impairments to realize how important intervention is if their children are to live to their fullest potential. It is up to us to educate them, and to get them to see that every child is entitled to greatness, even if he was diagnosed with neurotypicality. There can be hope for a better future if we can reach these children in time.

 

[RSpanner]

I failed to mention that someone with Asperger and an Ego the size of Texas could be a problem, and appears to be.

 

[mongo]

Those are all his words - doesn't mean that is what the victim feels. Remember "unintentional" is highly subjective. It is not uncommon for someone to claim their offence was unintentional and they are "sincerely apologizing" when caught - only to repeat it soon afterwards when they are sure not to get caught.

Moreover - this is the same guy who threatened to fire all the interns lined up to get coffee. So his bar for firing or taking strict action is quite low. But when it comes to racist comments he lectures victims on how to behave rather than take strict action on perpetrators. This is how a system that is unfair behaves - it always reduces the severity of majoritarian offences (this is how all these years people got away by making demeaning comments about women in workplace too).

In anycase - that email was offensive enough that I remember it after all these years. Even though I have never been in the situation the victim was in.

This whole exchange also goes to show how difficult moderation is.

Are you judging Elon on his words or not?
If the offending party is a bad actor, then Elon's statement doesn't apply.

Why bring in SpaceX?
Where, outside of one tweet of a rumor from April this year, has this coffee line story every been reported?
If it were true, is waiting for coffee a productive use of time?
In the, "documented to actually have happened" column, Elon had a froyo stand added to reduce the time spent going to get froyo. Same with inhouse cafeteria.
I Worked At SpaceX, And This Is How Elon Musk Inspired A Culture Of Top Performers

 

[Hock1]

Pardon, this really needs to be archived here, before its gets buried in Main.

Care to provide any more color? Or links?

EDIT: (linked above, thanks to O.P.)

Wasteland Capital on Twitter: "The $TWTR earnings report seems to say “Elon could have waited six months and saved $20bn buying us more cheaply”? It’s not a business, it’s a $ giveaway party to some lucky employees. The cost explosion is real. I also keep forgetting how small the user base in the US is. https://t.co/grzv3k4zwU" / Twitter

Yep. Over-paying. There is no way he is going to convert a strongly politicized group of workers to the other side. Plus there will be scores of lawsuits against the board and management. He has drawn attention to Twitter's sins. I think others can take over from here.

 

[Electroman]

I am not sure this discussion belongs in here or not. If not mods can delete it and I am fine with it. There was this clip of debate between Joe Rogan, Jack, Tim Pool on one side and Vijaya Gadde on the other defending Twitter's policy. This recording is from three years ago

I am paraphrasing here:

- On the subject of gender transformation it is perfect legal to have a view and position that, you will not recognize someone who is a born male and lives a male life and then suddenly one day insists that he is not a man anymore but a woman and you need to address them accordingly. Legally it is perfectly okay to have a view, that this is all hogwash and unacceptable.

But as per twitter policies, when you refuse to acknowledge that person his or her new gender, and only use the old gender pronouns - that constitutes harassment and would be suspended. So if John comes to me tomorrow and says I am Mary, and I say - nope, that guy was 'He/Him' to me yesterday and that is how I will continue to address that person - that is considered homophobic, misogynic, racist and harassment and a ban will follow.

Many were suspended for that, most notably BabylonBee.

 

[loquitur]

AI is notoriously difficult to diagnose .... if he really wants a "transparent" system, AI will not accomplish that.

But the question is - does he even want "moderation". Looks like he just wants illegal content out. No moderation at all ... so abuse, harassment etc are ok.

I feel that is what will make Twitter a graveyard. If you don't ban the fringe 1% - they will harass and abuse the 99% until they leave. That will completely collapse twitter ad revenue too.

ps :


Lets get out of this left-right false dichotomy. The question really is about harassment and abuse. I'm not going to post on twitter if all I see is a string of abuses all the time because of my skin color. That might be covered under "free speech" - but it won't happen in my physical town square. But happens all the time on Twitter. In earlier years the biggest issue that posters (esp. journalists) faced was abuse based on religion or gender.

So, the question really is how does he go about only removing illegal content without making Twitter a grave yard full of harassers and abusers.

Yes - you can't selectively ban "misinformation". It is extremely difficult to determine what is misinformation and I don't think Elon will step into that.

Yet there are so many possibilities for automating transparency and labeling, not necessarily even involving AI,
and not even needing to trigger outright posting bans. This can apply to topics rife with misinformation, hate speech,
or any subject, really.

Consider Bot Sentinel, with a percentage display. Imaging combining this with other metrics such as detectors
for verbiage loaded with personal insults, racist dogwhistling, etc. There are instant linguistic sentence analyses for
reading level (Flesch-Kincaid and many others). How about displaying important tweet-specific metrics in an
optional "dashboard" for the reader?

Similar to Tesla FSD-beta "Safety Scores", the underlying components or algorithms can be made transparent
(to open source, say), so can create a useful feedback loop. One can then shape a personal preference "bubble"
to make custom filters.

Further, Twitter can use such metrics to suppress display of the absolute worst garbage, not necessarily
by banning outright, but by segregating as do email spam filters. Shunning can work wonders, with
anyone being able to "unearth" the dreck if wanted.

Sure, all metrics can be "gamed" just as Tesla driving safety scores have been. If one wants to spend
much effort to game this stuff, go for it and post a lot of crap, but it will be exposed to humans soon enough,
which won't require Sherlock's smarter brother to discern.

Shear volume of whacky 240-character tweets can feed into other monitors. Say someone with millions
followers posts hundreds of low-brow tweets per day, indicating a superhuman level of bogosity. Then
their pearls of wisdom won't really be followed by millions who have created their own filters. Re-tweeting
crap exposed by various algos can be attenuated, too. If the ostensible multi-million follower finds that
they are filtered down to a tiny fraction of actual readers this score can be displayed, to see that they
are really an emperor with no clothes. Feedback can improve "reach" if that is a goal.

Nothing needs to be coded with "hard" thresholds, but can use fuzzy logic to allow grey areas.
The system doesn't need to be "one way", in favor of metric/reader symbiosis.

Again, an apt Tesla-related analogy might be with FSD Beta. At first the AI system seems opaque to a city driver,
but then the driver's own brain can suss out its limitations (say undue hesitancy at seemingly-clear
intersections, getting too close to clipping a wheel on a curb, not understanding the "intent" of
a pedestrian (er, "VRU") stopping before walking into a path). Human/machine symbiosis here creates
a better system overall. I believe this can be done also with Twitter.

 

[30seconds]

What about calling for the overthrow of the US government? False reporting on election sites or hours?

Are these ok?

 

[rjack1282]

What about calling for the overthrow of the US government? False reporting on election sites or hours?

Are these ok?

Yup. This isn’t China.

 

[Beltsbear]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1519735033950470144

With Elons latest tweet, it’s fairly clear that he would not moderate fairly. The original concept of pissing off 20% of the left and 20% of the rate is a little more reasoned. But his latest tweet points out falsely that the left has moved way more to the left and the right has moved to the right. There’s plenty of data to show that that’s not correct at all. Certainly both sides have moved apart, but when it comes to actual policies and rhetoric the right has moved much farther to the right than the left is moved to the left.

Right now, the idea of showing no bias would be a good thing. But instead to show bias towards one side is going to complicate the idea of moderating fairly even that much more. As I’ve said before, this whole thing is a train wreck and Elon is not going to come out ahead.

 

[Big Dog]

What about calling for the overthrow of the US government? False reporting on election sites or hours?

Are these ok?

Are you asking if they are legal and/or should be allowed on Twitter? (Yes, they are definitely legal in the US. And based on what Elon has said about free speech, I assume he would think them 'ok' on the new Twitter as they are both perfectly legal.)

 

[Big Dog]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1519735033950470144

With Elons latest tweet, it’s fairly clear that he would not moderate fairly. The original concept of pissing off 20% of the left and 20% of the rate is a little more reasoned. But his latest tweet points out falsely that the left has moved way more to the left and the right has moved to the right. There’s plenty of data to show that that’s not correct at all. Certainly both sides have moved apart, but when it comes to actual policies and rhetoric the right has moved much farther to the right than the left is moved to the left.

Right now, the idea of showing no bias would be a good thing. But instead to show bias towards one side is going to complicate the idea of moderating fairly even that much more. As I’ve said before, this whole thing is a train wreck and Elon is not going to come out ahead.

If true, that could be valuable info. Do you have a research site taht you could point to?