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Emergency Lane Departure - False Positives
- Thread starter Paddy3101
- Start date
SammichLover
Banned
If it is enough of deal that Tesla is getting active, direct feedback from me I'm guessing I'm just a raindrop in the storm and they're feeling lots of pressure. Undoubtedly there's a lot of Tesla employees having a very......invigorating week.
Glamisduner
Active Member
So what happens if I have this enabled and something falls out of the truck in front of me. Say a plastic bucket and this happens at least once a year. I go to swerve. Will I not be able to do so?
willow_hiller
Well-Known Member
You put on your turn signal, and torque the steering wheel. I dodged some tree branches in the road the other day with LDA and ELDA on and they did not activate.
Glamisduner
Active Member
When things fall out of the truck in front of you or next lane over, you typically don't have time to turn on your blinker. Usually you don't even have time to successfully avoid them. But sometimes you get lucky
You can still swerve (blinker or not), but if ELDA activates you will have to "fight" the car to overcome the torque that it will put on the steering wheel.
If you're holding on tight to the wheel (as I imagine you would be if taking evasive steering to avoid on object in the road), it shouldn't be too difficult to overcome the torque from ELDA (i.e., it doesn't require much strength), but it may (or will?) modestly and momentarily affect your steering trajectory and make your steering more jerky as ELDA engages and then disengages. And the audible alarm and red flashing on the screen, combined with the sense that your car is fighting you, certainly won't make the whole experience any less stressful, and passengers might get freaked out too.
Glamisduner
Active Member
From my experience with ELDA, it needs to think that you have driven out of your lane AND are about to hit something, or you have driven out of your lane and are about to run off the edge of the driveable road.
ALSO, the response seems very proportional to how much of an emergency it thinks it is, and what it needs to avoid that.
#1
I can reproduce the "good" ELDA response (on a road nearby me) by letting the car drift out of the lane, towards a high curb. In that case, there is a audible, visual and steering response, which quite reasonably bounces the car back into lane, avoiding the curb without to much drama. It's not overly aggressive, and you can override it relatively simply, if you really want to.
#2
In the 'bad' case of ELDA false positive response, whereby if falsely detected a threat its reacted like "ITS AN EMERGENCY RIGHT NOW, YOU ARE GOING TO HIT SOMETHING IN 100 MILLISECONDS", and the car goes sideways a couple of feet, as if it's avoiding something right now.
So in the picture on the first post, with the arrow about a car length ahead, and the car centered on the arrow, it tried to steer the whole car to the right of the arrow.
Have annotated the image, to show what it felt like the car wanted to do. It felt like the car saw tip of the arrow going right, and the right hand lane line going right and thought, you need to go right here (and head for that tree). 45degree turn, at 50mph in one car length. It also sees the car in font move to the right (because they are turning right)
I can't see what the car sees, or how it's interpreting the scene, but that's what it felt like.
ALSO, the response seems very proportional to how much of an emergency it thinks it is, and what it needs to avoid that.
#1
I can reproduce the "good" ELDA response (on a road nearby me) by letting the car drift out of the lane, towards a high curb. In that case, there is a audible, visual and steering response, which quite reasonably bounces the car back into lane, avoiding the curb without to much drama. It's not overly aggressive, and you can override it relatively simply, if you really want to.
#2
In the 'bad' case of ELDA false positive response, whereby if falsely detected a threat its reacted like "ITS AN EMERGENCY RIGHT NOW, YOU ARE GOING TO HIT SOMETHING IN 100 MILLISECONDS", and the car goes sideways a couple of feet, as if it's avoiding something right now.
So in the picture on the first post, with the arrow about a car length ahead, and the car centered on the arrow, it tried to steer the whole car to the right of the arrow.
Have annotated the image, to show what it felt like the car wanted to do. It felt like the car saw tip of the arrow going right, and the right hand lane line going right and thought, you need to go right here (and head for that tree). 45degree turn, at 50mph in one car length. It also sees the car in font move to the right (because they are turning right)
I can't see what the car sees, or how it's interpreting the scene, but that's what it felt like.
Not an issue.
First of all ELDA will not trigger unless it sees an “emergency”. There are some fake ones, but often there are none. It will let you swerve out of lane, but not if it expects you to possibly hit an obstacle. The trouble is that those can be trees, high grass, large road signs etc. that are close to the roadside. You usually know these are stationary and you'll miss them, but ELDA might not see it that way.
Secondly, ELDA steering is easy to overcome. It's most troublesome when you're on AutoSteer when you're not applying too much torque to avoid disengaging it. If you're swerving to avoid an obstacle I doubt you'll do it with a light touch.
The only real dangers I've seen is not being familiar with its tug and overcompensating for it rather than just resisting its tug. Or indeed too light a touch when circumstances would dictate a firmer grip (cfr. AutoSteer) or not reacting fast enough because you're startled. When one of the two latter happen the tug will seem stronger than it is, but if you reproduce it later I’ve found it still easy to overcome.
That said, the ELDA sound might be disconcerting and might startle you.
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Just took 16.3.2 for a spin in my M3. Same road that gave me 6 false positives last week now gave me 1 arguably false but not downright wrong. In my attempts to trigger the system I made it intervene 6 times of which 4 perfectly. Most of all on the Dutch roads from hell with bike lanes it no longer tugs the wheel violently but gently steers back to remain in the driveable zone. The balance has returned from causing worse danger than it is avoiding to avoiding actual collisions without being either a nanny or overly violently correcting.
So far I'm quite happy with the improvements
So far I'm quite happy with the improvements
SammichLover
Banned
SammichLover
Banned
You'll be able to overpower it, it gives up reasonably easy. That will cost you a little time and precision, but I'm not sure how to quantify that? That may result in an impact, or some other bad thing, happening where it wouldn't happen without LDA. Pretty hard to assign odds on that, though.
For me I think the biggest cost is undermining my confidence in the vehicle, day to day. It doesn't like you using all your lane. I haven't hung GoPro off the side to confirm, but my depth perception says it is sometimes kicking in before I actually leave my lane. :/ I understand why it would do that, the predictiveness it is using might actually be a reasonable trade-off for a lot of drivers. But I use my whole lane, in certain contexts, without leaving it. This isn't friendly to that.
That's just LDA, though. ELDA is something else that seems to happen a lot less often and I'm not sure exactly how or why it is triggering. Leaving the lane is not itself the trigger, I don't think it cares. I suspect it is collision detection, so maybe good for people with poor-to-mediocre situational mapping of the vehicles around it. It could be guarding for collisions in reactions like you mention. But with false positive rate like it is value in it right now is likely very low? Longterm I'm not sure how much is there, either?
Maybe it gets good enough at some point that you can trust it enough to NOT fight it when it tells you not to?
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Just thought I'd pop in to say this ELDA is bad, bad, bad.
I was driving on rural roads in Delaware, and several times it freaked and jerked the wheel from my hands into the middle of the road.
I had no idea what was going on, as I did not have autopilot on.
I had to go fishing around settings, which are in Autopilot menu (even though I wasn't using AP) and disabled it, only to find out next drive it did it again. Thank goodness my wife wasn't driving! She gets put off by a lot of the quirks and bugs as it is.
I did report as a bug. I'm sure it works as designed on most roads, but this is a completely unacceptable change and wasn't ready to be forced on us for every drive.
I was driving on rural roads in Delaware, and several times it freaked and jerked the wheel from my hands into the middle of the road.
I had no idea what was going on, as I did not have autopilot on.
I had to go fishing around settings, which are in Autopilot menu (even though I wasn't using AP) and disabled it, only to find out next drive it did it again. Thank goodness my wife wasn't driving! She gets put off by a lot of the quirks and bugs as it is.
I did report as a bug. I'm sure it works as designed on most roads, but this is a completely unacceptable change and wasn't ready to be forced on us for every drive.
willow_hiller
Well-Known Member
Alright. I may owe an apology to people who I accused of being bad drivers.
For those still seeing ELDA false positives, do you get any warning beeps? Any messages? I got a bit of an unexpected ELDA activation today near a gore point. The weirdest part was there were no beeps and no message on the screen; just a jerk of the steering wheel. I'm guessing this was ELDA (or just a 2019.16.2 bug), because I think I've had LDA trigger once before and I had a series of beeps and a warning message appear on the screen.
I captured the moment on the repeater (and spent way too long converting it into a gif), I did get closer than I thought to the solid white line at the start of the gore point...
For those still seeing ELDA false positives, do you get any warning beeps? Any messages? I got a bit of an unexpected ELDA activation today near a gore point. The weirdest part was there were no beeps and no message on the screen; just a jerk of the steering wheel. I'm guessing this was ELDA (or just a 2019.16.2 bug), because I think I've had LDA trigger once before and I had a series of beeps and a warning message appear on the screen.
I captured the moment on the repeater (and spent way too long converting it into a gif), I did get closer than I thought to the solid white line at the start of the gore point...
SammichLover
Banned
ELDA beeps and throws up a red icon error message ("Steering Correction for Safety" is approximately the text). LDA doesn't, unless you have at least two successive triggers without driver input of what seems to be the definition to satisfy AP nagging. The message that pops up is also different text, about taking control, and it is yellow/amber warning rather than a red error.
Is the video showing what I think, that you didn't quite leave the lane before it triggered? I'm not sure how to interpret it. Because that's the sense I've gotten too, sometimes. I haven't stuck a GoPro out the side yet, though. Nice job.
willow_hiller
Well-Known Member
That's correct. So this was presumably LDA? The curve was quite severe, so maybe it thought my trajectory would shortly leave the lane even though I did not.
SammichLover
Banned
<edit> Correct, LDA.
Yeah, I think it is projecting into the future. Ultimately I suspect (and I've said this before) that that is somewhat necessary for what it is doing, at least to some extent. They probably can improve the guessing but the risk is trading off for false negatives. If that's better from this task function view? It is hard to make that assessment without a lot of data over time, data we aren't going to have access to.
Unless they've got per vehicle and/or per driver learning <edit>for this feature</edit>, it is going to be really hard to refine this methinks.
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Had my first ELDA event yesterday. The alarm is very jarring, yikes. Red lines on the screen, so ELDA vs LDA. I was entering a freeway ramp, and I guess the car decided I was outside the bounds and engaged ELDA. Steering corrected, but I was able to override since I had a firm grip and was actively steering onto the ramp at the time.
Here are the road markings (or lack thereof) where it happened.
Here are the road markings (or lack thereof) where it happened.
SammichLover
Banned
Yeah, late last night I got a "red line" one while poking around. This looked/sounded like the banshee I'd seen before in 8.6! Didn't last as long as I'd seen under 8.6, so the banshee wasn't entirely banished? LDA was turned off, so it definitely wasn't some deeper mode of LDA. That makes 8.6 even more enigmatic.
It might be that ELDA will do this when it is "sure" of where the edge of the road is and will get progressively louder the longer you are there (longer being a relative term here, in 1/10's of seconds). That's a guess, so far at least.
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