Emergency Lane Departure - False Positives

[jyalpert]

LDA and ELDA are disguised as safety features, but rather two of the many building blocks of FSD. I think Tesla's definition of feature complete means to demonstrate these mini-features. How many to surface? I don't know.

If their architecture is right and all the necessary building blocks are exhausted and designed correctly, FSD will eventually work. However, if most of the blocks are not working reliably 100%, the whole FSD would fail easily.

This is what I don't fully understand about Tesla's autonomy program, and none of the analysts asked about it during autonomy day. What's the strategy?

Andrej described a painstaking, piecemeal approach of essentially making a long list of things that happen while you're driving, and trying to create individual point solutions for each one of those things. He cites the cut-in as an example. I'd guess lane departure is another example.

Somewhere on that list of things, they'll draw a line and say "now we have feature complete FSD". It's a good strategy for them, as they can release each point solution independently and call it an additional driver aid.

But I'm not clear on where that line is, where they are vis a vis that line, and whether that line is "good enough" to actually create a car with no steering wheel or pedals.

This, plus many other red flags and contradictions in the autonomy day presentation, have left me more confused than before.

 

[mblakele]

This is what I don't fully understand about Tesla's autonomy program, and none of the analysts asked about it during autonomy day. What's the strategy?

Andrej described a painstaking, piecemeal approach of essentially making a long list of things that happen while you're driving, and trying to create individual point solutions for each one of those things. He cites the cut-in as an example. I'd guess lane departure is another example.

Somewhere on that list of things, they'll draw a line and say "now we have feature complete FSD". It's a good strategy for them, as they can release each point solution independently and call it an additional driver aid.

But I'm not clear on where that line is, where they are vis a vis that line, and whether that line is "good enough" to actually create a car with no steering wheel or pedals.

This, plus many other red flags and contradictions in the autonomy day presentation, have left me more confused than before.

You might be interested in Tracking FSD Feature Complete

 

[TomHudson]

My wife just came home from a trip to the hairdresser and she was visibly shaking. She came home on some 2-lane roads and she said she lost count at 12 false-positive corrections. And when a doe ran across the road in front of her (she was expecting it), the car did nothing, which is ironic.

They had better damn well let us turn this feature off permanently -- I'm going through the TeslaCam logs now to find the events so we can document this.

I bought the car WITHOUT Autopilot for a reason. This is pissing me off, and I've been a Tesla cheerleader.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

TeslaCam logs now to find the events so we can document this.

Definitely post these! Would be interesting to see the degree of correction, though the overall sense of motion is often lost in the videos.

 

[SammichLover]

though the overall sense of motion is often lost in the videos.

This is so true. I did that AX video with the built-in camera and could barely discern the wiggle in vision where I'd completely broken the rear end loose. I could see it, because I knew where to look, but it greatly understates the violence that was happening at that point.

 

[Sophias_dad]

Had two EALD interventions so far.....

One was traveling down a two lane road with no-passing lines down the middle, all freshly painted lines, bicycle and car approaching from the other direction on the far side of the road. I intentionally squeezed to the right of the lane, and onto my fog(white) line, so as to leave the approaching car extra space to get around the bike. EALD panicked and tried to steer me back into my lane, when I was paying complete attention. Had I not corrected its correction, there's a nonzero chance of an accident. Its especially annoying because there was indeed a guard rail not too far off the road, and breaking free of the correction could have caused me to steer into the guard rail. I'd much rather have my wheel-shaker only. If I'm dumb enough to not respond, I deserve the crash.

The second was on a two lane road, no lines down the middle, but freshly painted fog lines on the edges. I was on my side, but not very near the fog line. EALD tries to take the wheel for no apparent reason. Again, I'd much rather have my wheel-shaker only.

 

[jsmay311]

This is so true. I did that AX video with the built-in camera and could barely discern the wiggle in vision where I'd completely broken the rear end loose. I could see it, because I knew where to look, but it greatly understates the violence that was happening at that point.

Agreed.

I think in order to be really informative regarding ELDA behavior, a video would need to be taken from within the cabin so it shows the screen. And ideally it would show the screen and the steering wheel.

 

[Paddy3101]

I have a question for those who experienced the problem. Was it soon after installing the update?

I have NOT had any problems with this for a few drives now, whereas has a problem with every drive. I wonder if there is some sort of 'Calibration' sort of thing happening after first installation?

Been over the same roads, same time of day, same scenarios (70miles each day worth), same positioning, and it seems to behaving itself at the moment.

 

[SammichLover]

I have a question for those who experienced the problem. Was it soon after installing the update?

The first one would have been, er about 24hrs so about 50 miles in I think? Second one, when I forgot to disable on a particular drive, was several days post-patch.

Oversights like the above aside, I'm disabling ELDA for every drive and have been for days now. <edit>Also have had LDA off for a very long time.

 

[TomHudson]

What really annoys me is, after she reported the car trying to steer itself the other day, I confidently went out and turned the damn thing off, and told her it wouldn't be a problem any more.

Here's my thinking: When it happened the other day it was when an oncoming car in the other lane (2-lane road) was moving around a parked car, so she edged over to the right and it did the correction; she associated it with our car seeing the other car and thinking it was a threat. So I think today she was hanging to the right a bit, worried that oncoming cars would trigger the thing, but it was making the car correct MORE because it thought she was drifting off the road.

We're on 2019.16.2 -- but no matter what, they should have a permanent off switch on this feature. Human beings aren't robots and sometimes drift to one side or the other for a good reason, and the car shouldn't "correct" that judgement.

 

[sixela]

I disable ELDA but keep LDA on the rather nonintrusive “warning” setting.

 

[diamond.g]

Does Track mode reset itself with every drive?

 

[jkeyser14]

I have a question for those who experienced the problem. Was it soon after installing the update?

I have NOT had any problems with this for a few drives now, whereas has a problem with every drive. I wonder if there is some sort of 'Calibration' sort of thing happening after first installation?

Been over the same roads, same time of day, same scenarios (70miles each day worth), same positioning, and it seems to behaving itself at the moment.

No, it took about 2 weeks before I had my first issue. It left me very shaken and mad at Tesla. I now turn it off every time I shift to drive.

 

[duanra]

There was no setting in 8.5. Nothing to turn on or off, this was just happening with no explanation. LDA and ELDA supposedly didn't exist in 8.5, but there it is.

Note the video shows a RED line, and note that it turns the wheel. This is ELDA.

Read the release notes: LDA shows a blue line when it does a steering correction. ELDA shows a red line when it does a steering correction.

I am on 8.5 and I don't have it.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Does Track mode reset itself with every drive?

Yes. You have to turn it on (re-enable) every time you exit/re-enter the driver's seat. (I think that's the approximate logic, anyway.)

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

I am on 8.5 and I don't have it.

Correct.

Again, (for the last time? ), LDA and ELDA did not exist in mass release versions prior to 16.2 (it's possible they existed in limited release early access versions, and likely existed in preliminary release 16 and 16.1 - but those were very limited distribution)!

In prior versions, there was LDW (which LDA is an extension of), and there was "something" related to warnings that occur after exiting Autosteer and you drift over a line, which may have involved noises. But whatever that "something" was, it is (was?) distinct from LDA and ELDA.

 

[diamond.g]

Yes. You have to turn it on every time you exit the driver's seat. (I think that's the approximate logic, anyway.)

Shame. Was hoping that would be an easy bypass for at least the Performance folks.

 

[SMAlset]

I got the update on Tuesday. Today I was on a two-lane road, not on AP and guess I experienced the ELDA from comments here. I posted about it under a 2019.16.2 thread along with other observations of the update. First time ever encounting it. I was going around a curve (outer side) with another car approaching me from the other direction. Heard warning beeps, saw a red alert on the screen and the message said something like "Steering corrected for your safety". I'm pretty sure I was fairly centered in my lane but thought maybe the other driver was too close to the center line. I had both hands on the wheel and didn't feel any jerk so any correction it did in my case was pretty mild. The warning beeps can be jarring especially when you don't expect them like this first time with the feature activated so I can imagine if this one-time event I experience had gone on many times during my trip could see it making you feel less secure in your car. Sounds like they'll be fine tuning it and getting a lot of shared data feedback on it.

Since the car wasn't taken far off path in my case, after it happened I thought it was probably a nice feature to have. If you aren't paying attention and traveling at a decent speed it doesn't take long to deviate out of your lane and off the road for example. Not sure about the amount of steering correction involved as I said I don't think I felt a pull or jerk. I had glanced over the release notes after the install but guess they didn't sink in so I was surprised when it happened. I'll probably leave it on instead of turning off each time I leave and see what it does in the near future.

 

[Incredulocious]

Still delaying my update to 16.X (as is my girlfriend) and came back here to see if there's any acknowledgement from Tesla yet.

Saw this which is slightly encouraging:

During my drive this evening ELDA went off with no TACC or Auto steering AND no line painted on the right side of the road. I had Tesla mobile service today for a couple of minor issues, and he said Tesla is aware of the complaints and it should be addressed in an upcoming firmware update.

 

[johnm]

(I skimmed the thread, but may have missed stuff.)

If you turn on LDA, does that eliminate the loud warnings from ELDA? I turned on LDA when it became available and after a couple of days, was pretty used to it. I think I now find LDA less annoying than shaking the steering wheel that I had turned on before. I don't think I have encountered any ELDA warnings.

For what values of x and y should feature F be added: Feature F saves x (net) lives per year and annoys/inconveniences y% of people. (And then hopefully, work continues to lower y.)