If they're only using the L-N voltage, it may be all they have access to report upon. To report L-L voltage, they would likely have to add a special measuring circuit across the inputs. I suspect that widodh is correct and that they're using 3 16A chargers, one between each line conductor and neutral, and creating a DC bus from them. It's like the Superchargers in the US - despite having 480VAC 3ph connected to them, the chargers inside the SC cabinet are connected L-N and use 277V, they don't use the 480VAC.
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If they're only using the L-N voltage, it may be all they have access to report upon. To report L-L voltage, they would likely have to add a special measuring circuit across the inputs. I suspect that widodh is correct and that they're using 3 16A chargers, one between each line conductor and neutral, and creating a DC bus from them. It's like the Superchargers in the US - despite having 480VAC 3ph connected to them, the chargers inside the SC cabinet are connected L-N and use 277V, they don't use the 480VAC.
Yeah people have been trying to explain to Tesla about the need for 3 phase since the first Roadsters were delivered in Europe (a couple years before widodh joined TMC). From what I hear, Tesla's view was rather US-centric and they didn't seem to understand the issues and the various local regulations. Really, can you imagine being stuck trying to charge a 53kWh battery at 3.3kW since that's all you're allowed to pull on a single phase? Now imagine trying to charge 85kWh with that low power. But private communications with Tesla about this didn't seem to be getting much traction and then it appears they got bad advice from RWE or all places.
The difference is that Wido's campaign was public and it rallied the troops. It educated both Tesla and potential European buyers that this was a real issue that needed to be addressed. So good job! But we should remember that other folks laid ground work, so at least Tesla had some awareness of the issue.
Hmm... if everything else is equal, 15% more contact area isn't enough to reach US Supercharging levels. I suppose there are some other differences.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
That is if the specs of the original plug is actually totally maxed out. Could be some buffer capacity there maybe? Also, are we sure that the geometry of the holes of the inlet is identical to a regular Mennekes inlet apart from being 6 mm deeper? We are yet to see pictures of the male contact on a European supercharger. When we see how that plug looks in detail I'm sure we will understand better.
LuckyLuke
Model S P90DL
The DC mid spec on a type 2 connector is rated at 140A, so increase that with 15% results in 161A , still not very close to the 200-225A that is needed for supercharging at 90kW
I think you're absolutely right, but they can just multiply the measured number by the square root of three to get the correct value. If L-N voltage is x volt, then L-L voltage must necessarily be sqrt(3)x
I bought a 32 A type 2 cable made by Mennekes yesterday. It does not have a 40 mm insertion depth, it's much shorter.
*edit* I just measured the inserton depth - from the point where the pins contact the sockets to fully inserted, the depth is just 9 mm.
So if the Tesla version has 6 mm more insertion depth, then the difference would be 67 %. 140 A * 1.67 = 234 A.
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I think you're absolutely right, but they can just multiply the measured number by the square root of three to get the correct value
I suspect it's to make all the calculations line up without needing sqrt(3), because it's a balanced load 223 * 32 * 3 can be used.
Ok, that makes more sense. When I saw the EU charge port in person, the pins seemed significantly longer (by at least 50%) than what's in the normal Type-2 connector. This was just eyeballing. I'm not sure I would have noticed only a 15% difference without a side-by-side comparison.
I suspect it's to make all the calculations line up without needing sqrt(3), because it's a balanced load 223 * 32 * 3 can be used.
I just wrote a little C program that computes sqrt(3) one billion times. On my laptop It terminated after 2.7 seconds. Also, it's a constant, they just need to multiply the voltage by it before displaying the result. But this is all just nitpicking, it just looks a little weird, that's all.
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I just wrote a little C program that computes sqrt(3) one billion times. It executed in 0.28 seconds on my laptop. I think they should just use the square root function when they need to
I agree with you, but customers may not know. (Heck, in the Supercharger thread, I even mucked up the 3-phase power calculation.) Make it simple for people to understand, not just the EE graduates.
Thanks
I wasn't offended in any way that you didn't mention me, I just wanted to indicate that as I also was pushing for three phase early on, I could say something about the outcome. And that my efforts might have made a difference too... Human nature, I guess.
My story is as follows: I really wanted a Roadster badly and followed Tesla closely from about 2007. That was an impossible dream, there's no room for such an expensive two seater in our family. But a Model S was another matter, my wife wants an MS too.
I realized that no matter which charging plug Europe would end up choosing, it would be based on three phase, because there really isn't any alternative. I contacted Tesla about three phase support and at first got positive answers, but the attitude towards three phase support here on TMC was negative, and people reported that other Tesla executives had said that three phase would not be supported. I really, really want an MS, and I wouldn't want to buy it without three phase support, and I also felt that Tesla couldn't succeed in Europe without this. So I had to try to turn the popular opinion around. Other people had also talked about three phase before me, but I know how it works, so I can explain why we need it.
I kept educating, explaining and advocating for approximately two years, until people went "Oh, no, not three phase again!" whenever someone mentioned it. In the beginning I felt a bit like a lunatic prophet on his soapbox preaching fire and brimstone to an indifferent (or sometimes sneering) audience. With time, however, more and more people seemed to agree with me, until there were a number of respected TMC members who would loudly defend the need for three phase.
All this took way too much time, however. I have a wife and two small children, and after a lengthy and particularly unpleasant discussion with my wife, in the middle of the night, I realized that I simply would have to stay completely away from TMC for a while. I felt that I had explained the issue as clearly and precisely as I could, and also that multiple people had understood my points. So I hoped the snowball had started rolling.
When I took a little sneak peek some months later, I discovered to my great surprise and joy that Wido had written a document laying out the most important arguments and organized a signature campaign, printed the whole thing on good, old-fashioned paper and sent it via snail mail to Elon. Great idea, out of the box thinking, and he got it done. And it worked.
So now I'll take over our brand new Model S, with 85 kWh battery and 32 A three phase capability, in a few weeks. That's just awesome! And I hope that I've helped to change the world just a little bit.
So did Tesla achive what I hoped for? Yes.
The lack of 43 kW support isn't surprising. They would have had to either buy the chargers or design an entirely new one to do that. So I think 22 kW is as good as we could hope for now. The charger is also unnecessarily heavy and expensive, but for the same reason. And 22 kW is more important than 43 kW, because the 22 kW poles will be so widespread.
The way Tesla managed to support both supercharging and Type 2 charging with the same connectors is just beautiful. Great job.
Unfortunately, the special Norwegian 230 V three phase "isolated terra" distribution system is not supported. That's not a showstopper, however, because we can still get 400 V three phase via a small transformer if we really need it, and those are actually surprisingly inexpensive (about the same cost as one of the chargers). And 400 V Type 2 charge poles are popping up everywhere.
So I'd say Tesla solved the three phase problem 98 % for Europe, and about 90 % for Norway. I'm very happy with the result
The norwegian EVSE and Model S do support IT, you can read it the owner's manual
For single phase only, three phase IT is NOT supported.
Thanks! I was greeted the same way by Tesla today in Tilburg. They all know who "Wido" is, the 3-phase guy...
Sure, 3x63A would have been even cooler, but I'm very happy with the result. 22kW and a Type 2 inlet with SC capabilities!
hey, widoh. somewho i missed you in Tilburg. i was the only german who got his car there, but was only allowed to take my key and the papers with me. i picked up my car in munic next day.
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What I understand is, that norway 3-phase comes without N (4-pin connector) therfore you need L-L with 230V?
By he way. In america are some grids with 120V/207V. For those Model S owners it may be helpful too, to charge with 3-phase but L-L.
I tried several times to explains this to JB, Elon and George. Georg returned in one of his letters, that he understood the need in Europe.
My understanding was, that we may get 3-chargers (30kW) using the same as in the US. But the space for the charges is limited, not enough for 3.
I am happy, charging with 3x16A at home (my roadster with 1x32A) and with 3x32A abroad without the need to reach for the next HPC as i do with my roadster.
Did the the 560km trip from tilburg charging at 2 hpc.
There were only a vocal few here on TMC that never managed to understand the necessity. And then they made a point of going on and on about how they didn't see why it was needed.
In North America you're rarely presented with all three phase legs except in industrial environments or where you have building control. In apartments and condos, you're given 2 phase legs and a neutral, and it's treated like our typical split-phase/center-tap 240V service. It is very rare for a residence of any type to get all 3 phase legs.
In North America you will find it easier to get single-phase @ 100A than to get three-phase. Many distribution lines carry only 2 phase legs into entire neighborhoods (to give me 3-phase at my home would require my power company adding about ~5 km of a third distribution wire).
I am curious about support for 3-phase IT. From Bipo's pic, it looks like Tesla has a seperate UMC (mobile EVSE) for IT, and the label says it supports 400 V (phase-to-phase?) IT.
However, homes with 230 V (phase-to-phase?) IT can only charge with a single phase.
Alternatively, owners with 230 V IT can purchase a transformer to provide 400 V IT for their Model S.
Is this correct? Are these voltages measured phase-to-phase, or phase-to-neutral?
Thanks,
GSP
However, homes with 230 V (phase-to-phase?) IT can only charge with a single phase.
Alternatively, owners with 230 V IT can purchase a transformer to provide 400 V IT for their Model S.
Is this correct? Are these voltages measured phase-to-phase, or phase-to-neutral?
Thanks,
GSP
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