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Europe: Future Charging for Model S 1-phase or 3-phase? (Part 2)

Discussion in 'Model S: Battery & Charging' started by widodh, Apr 12, 2012.

  1. jcstp

    jcstp Active Member

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  2. Robert.Boston

    Robert.Boston Model S VIN P01536

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    Does the IEC actually set the standards for EU countries? If not, isn't it the particular country's electric code that governs the use of adapters? Obviously, in the US (which is a full member of the IEC), the IEC code does not govern and adapters are legal.
     
  3. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    No, Type 2 to Tesla cable is perfectly legal... what's not allowed are adapters at the car (i.e. what Tesla have done in the US to adapt J1772 to Tesla Model S).

    - - - Updated - - -

    The IEC standards are being adopted as national standards... nothing new or different here... we've been saying for several years that adaptors at the car cannot be used.
     
  4. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    No, a cable with two different plugs on each end is allowed.

    So:
    Mennekes -> J1772
    Mennekes -> Tesla Roadster
    Mennekes -> Tesla Model S

    Those cables are not a problem, what will be a problem is this:

    Charging Station -> Cable (fixed) -> Mennekes -> Adapter -> Model S inlet

    Just like the J1772 adapter in the US, since they have fixed cables on the charging stations.

    In the EU we do not allow adapters on the vehicle inlet.

    I'm not completely sure about that, but would it be a wise decision to ignore the IEC?

    Imho the electrical rules in the EU are much more strict then in other parts of the world and that is a very good thing. Safety first.

    Adapters might leak in the pooring rain and cause a shortage. Or they could freeze during heavy snow/icy-rains.
     
  5. eledille

    eledille TMS 85 owner :)

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    I wouldn't say that. From what little I've seen, the US has at least as strict electrical codes as the EU.

    For example, you can legally run 16 A through a Schuko plug and 1.5 mm[sup]2[/sup] extension cable. That is IMHO crazy. Three hours of that will make the pins way too hot to touch, and repeated cycles will cause the screws too loosen.

    Maybe they have decided not to repeat their mistakes and are tightening the regulations a bit too much now. I can't really see why adapters would be any worse than plugs. On the other hand, we're dealing with 400 V, which is rather a lot more than 230. You really don't want a 400 V shock.
     
  6. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    This requirement is nothing new and IMO the Type 2 connector is simply the best EV connector available. Think about this for a minute... 1 and 3 phase AC up to 43kW, and DC up to 70kW in one slimline connector... that's real genius!
     
  7. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

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    Very nice, but I'd rather have a propritetary Tesla connector with 3-phase and 90kW DC. I don't think the car will support 43kW AC anyway, and all sites here that have 43kW AC also have 22kW AC which is no problem to use with a proprietary connector. Also the same sites has 32A 3-phase CEE which I expect the Mobile Connector to support.

    Also, are adapters illegal to use, to sell or both ? If they can legally sell them I do not think anyone will be checking to see if you use one ;)
     
  8. Eberhard

    Eberhard #421 Model S #S32

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    the main problem to Tesla is the homologation process. Tesla has to follow the ICE standard, their own socket will not be accepted because of lack of support as an industrial standard. Even SAE accepted the COMBO-Standard for DC-Charging.
     
  9. Kevin Sharpe

    Kevin Sharpe Active Member

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    While it may be true that Norway always deploys 22kW/43kW/CEE at the same location that's not true for most of Europe. Do you really want a car that cannot plug into every public charging location that you can find?

    Why are Tesla fighting against the charging industry? Why not work together to ensure mass deployment of EV charging (and therefore cars)?

    Unfortunately you have forgotten a small thing called the insurance industry... wait until you have a fire that involves an adaptor :-(
     
  10. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    Are you sure about that?

    I think that the Tesla connector needs to follow the safety regulations of the IEC, but they are not required to have a standardized connector on the vehicle I think?
     
  11. eledille

    eledille TMS 85 owner :)

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    I didn't mean new in that sense. The Schuko plug was standardized in the ninteen twenties I think.

    You're absolutely right. Thanks for herding me along the narrow path :) We don't want adapters, we want every charging station to work with every car.

    While writing this, I discovered that even though I thought I knew that the Type 2 plug supports 70 kW DC, I can't find any references for it. What I can find is that it supports 70 A single phase and up to 500 V. 70 A DC @ 500 V is just 35 kW. Does it really support 70 kW DC?

    The ideal solution would be to find a way to make the Type 2 plug safely carry 90 kW DC.
     
  12. doug

    doug Administrator / Head Moderator

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    According to Mennekes, the Type 2 connector supports it, but I don't know of any manufacturer that's actually using the "DC-Mid" mode. Tesla is currently doing the closest thing to that with the Model S connector they're using in the US. I've always thought Tesla should essentially use a beefed up version of the Type 2 connector that's physically compatible with the existing ones. As it is, to me the current Model S connector looks inspired by the Type 2 (Mennekes).

    attachment.php?attachmentid=10401&d=1349270649.jpg

    I guess we'll see what they do. Tesla is using these double walled connector pins that increases the contact area.
     
  13. jkirkebo

    jkirkebo Model S P85+ VIN 14420 EU

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    140A at the Model S battery voltage is only about 54kW max, a far cry from 90kW. The Tesla SuperCharger works at 225A, 60% more than Mennekes mid-level DC.
     
  14. eledille

    eledille TMS 85 owner :)

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    #114 eledille, Dec 10, 2012
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2012
    doug: Thanks, I remember that chart now. I knew I'd seen it somewhere, but almost started to think I was imagining things when I couldn't find it... OT, but I think it's strange that they're not using the DC-Mid config together with the DC-High config for 340A.

    Hmm. I[sup]2[/sup]R losses would be 2.6 times higher. Doesn't sound promising, but might be possible by throwing enough money at it. Forced air cooling would probably do the trick, if it's possible to get the air into the connector. This would only be needed for a Tesla connected to a Tesla supercharger, so they might be able to do it.

    One way to get more contact area would be to use longer pins than needed for Type 2. Type 2 would slide partway down the pins, the supercharger would insert all the way.
     
  15. dpeilow

    dpeilow Moderator

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    So were we not supposed to get offcial details by Christmas? There is 1 day left...
     
  16. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    Doesn't seem like it :(

    The test drives in NL/BE should start in the new year, those cars would have 3-phase charging from what I've heard, so maybe we have to wait for then? I just want to know what connector goes on!
     
  17. Bipo

    Bipo Member

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    ¿Any news about the three-phase european-spec Tesla plug?
     
  18. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    No, nothing new. I'm waiting for the invitation to the test drives. The test drive cars should have 3-phase charging and show us everything. (From what I've heard)
     
  19. ebbrey

    ebbrey Member

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    Heard today its about 2 weeks until we get the info
     
  20. widodh

    widodh Model S R231 EU

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    That's about when I expect that we'll get test drives.

    Did you have a good source?
     

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