Lol I'm not a tree hugger either. I track an open exhaust GT-R if tats any indication. Typically get 4 miles to the gallon on track days.
I love cars too but my BMW owners experience was terrible including the fit and finish of the car.
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Lol I'm not a tree hugger either. I track an open exhaust GT-R if tats any indication. Typically get 4 miles to the gallon on track days.
I love cars too but my BMW owners experience was terrible including the fit and finish of the car.
dirkhh
Middle-aged Member
I posted this elsewhere but can't find it right now. A friend of mine and I did a straight up comparison. We took two Model S to a BMW dealership and parked between 3s, 5s and 7s and kept checking back and forth.
Depending on the equipment level, the Model S is comparable to a 3 in interior feel. Attention to detail is much better in the BMW, but of course it doesn't have the big screen and many of the other advantages of a Model S.
The 5 and 7 are way out of reach when it comes to comfort and quality.
Please don't confuse loving your car with having to have it be better than anything else. The Model S is a great car (and I wouldn't swap it for any BMW), but as joetz said, if you are a German and sit down in it, comparing it to a current BMW, there is an obvious gap.
And while you may not like those features, it turns out a lot of German drivers do. And especially a lot of drivers of cars in the EUR 70k+ range do.
So yes, the Model S has massive drawbacks. Ridiculously short range when driven at Autobahn speed, lack of most common high end features that German buyers may or may not expect at this price point, lack of comfort and quality perception on the inside.
It does have things that set it apart, if you care for those. Which is why a few hundred enthusiast have bought the Model S in Germany. But for Germany to become a major market for Tesla, it needs a different product.
PS: in the interest of full disclosure - I happen to be German and I have owned 10 BMWs in my life and was planning to buy number 11 when I test drove the Model S and realized that I, living in Portland close to I5, was perfectly OK with the limitations of the Model S and just loved the way it drove... but talking to family members and many of my friends in Germany who have looked at the Model S - not a single one of them would consider buying one. Any most of them could easily afford one. They will continue to buy their BMWs and Audis and Porsches
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
I can second that. I am quite often taking colleagues to the Frankfurt Tesla store, some have even taken test drives. And while all of them would be in the market for a Model S, they also are not really convinced yet. All who did test drives loved the performance, as well as the large trunk and frunk, but the more you get into details, the less appealing the car seemed to them. From the missing comfort and safety features, the lacking performance and range on typical German Autobahn driving, to the missing refinement in quite a few areas, combined with what people have come to expect on a 70-120K Euro car, it all just adds up.
In that context I find the current sales figure quite good - especially when you again think about the fact that there are zero incentives to speak of for buying an EV here!
It astonishes me how some people cannot see the forest for the trees...
I have never owned a high end Mercedes or BMW but I have owned a Lexus LS400 and a Porsche 911. The fact that the Model S does not offer every conceivable luxury feature and frill (yes, modern pricey luxury cars are packed with gimmicks in a desperate attempt to distinguish themselves from competitors) is of no consequence to me. What matters is a revolutionary powertrain that is highly efficient, environmentally sensitive, offers extraordinary EV range with no-cost high speed charging when I am over 200 miles from home, and is a delight to drive is what matters!
What safety features are people looking for? After millions of miles driven there has yet to be a death or serious injury in a Model S that's been reported, and it gets the highest marks in crash tests. Maybe whatever "safety features" are missing aren't so important after all. As for lacking performance, that just sounds like an excuse from someone who is wedded to ICE cars.
dirkhh
Middle-aged Member
And we are back at confusing what YOU perceive as safety track record and what German drivers may perceive as important safety features.
I thought this thread was about what is holding back Tesla sales in Europe, not what the "true believers" here in the forum perceive as the reasons why their car is perfect.
I thought this thread was about what is holding back Tesla sales in Europe, not what the "true believers" here in the forum perceive as the reasons why their car is perfect.
I think what may be holding back sales in some European countries (though not in Norway) is a bias against American-built high end sedans.
The irony is that before roughly the 1970's there was a general bias in America against imported high end sedans. Now they are valued, but when I was a kid they generally were not.
The irony is that before roughly the 1970's there was a general bias in America against imported high end sedans. Now they are valued, but when I was a kid they generally were not.
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
I would imagine people might be looking for blind-spot monitor/alert, lane departure alerts, and possibly radar or laser pre-collision brake activation and perhaps active headrests as a start.
The first two, you can retrofit, which we have using the Goshers system (I wouldn't do that again if I could go back) and the Mobileye (would do again). But the other features you can't get even if you add the extra box to the MobilEye that can turn off cruise control in a potential forward collision.
Considering that there is probably some nationalistic pride in for the European-made vehicles and the fact that the features are available to them, it's not unreasonable for anyone to want them. It doesn't matter whether one actually NEEDS the features, but if a potential buyer is actively comparing features, it's a perceived deficiency. If you can avoid getting into an accident in the first place, one could argue that it doesn't matter whether one car is more crash-worthy than another. On the other hand, we've put 20k miles on our Model S in the last year, verus 3k on our German ICE...
The first two, you can retrofit, which we have using the Goshers system (I wouldn't do that again if I could go back) and the Mobileye (would do again). But the other features you can't get even if you add the extra box to the MobilEye that can turn off cruise control in a potential forward collision.
Considering that there is probably some nationalistic pride in for the European-made vehicles and the fact that the features are available to them, it's not unreasonable for anyone to want them. It doesn't matter whether one actually NEEDS the features, but if a potential buyer is actively comparing features, it's a perceived deficiency. If you can avoid getting into an accident in the first place, one could argue that it doesn't matter whether one car is more crash-worthy than another. On the other hand, we've put 20k miles on our Model S in the last year, verus 3k on our German ICE...
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
1: If you’re able to move your body within ‘normal’ parameters this one shouldn’t be a problem. Unless you forget to visually check your blind spot that is…
2 & 3: As long as you are paying attention while you’re driving you don’t need these.
But no. 4 is a valid point. But perhaps we should clarify though, that the competitors ‘only’ offer active headrests for the front seats…
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But on the other hand, it’s the real world performance in a real rear-end collision that matters. And so far we don’t have any test results for the Model S that we can use to compare to test results from any competitors…
I really think that people who say for example that the lack of blind spot detection isn't a problem because it's not necessary "because drivers should check their mirrors" are missing the point.
NONE of these features are necessary. Almost none of the Model S's features are necessary. It's not necessary to have a sound system at all, or navigation, or electric seats, or heated seats, or leather, or high performance, or alloy wheels, or air conditioning or metallic paint. Why on earth should any of this be about necessity?
The Model S is a luxury car. It's priced to compete directly with German luxury cars. A specced up Model S is as expensive as a top end Mercedes S Class in Europe. And while the Model S has some amazing features that the German cars can't provide, there's no point denying that it's completely outclassed on cabin quality and driver aids.
My 8 year old Audi A8 has radar guided cruise control, proper iPod integration, ventilated massaging seats, an integrated rear seat entertainment system, 4 zone climate control, electrically adjustable memory headrests, electric rear and side window blinds and acres of rear legroom. The Model S is a brand new car, it's more expensive than the equivalent new A8 would be today, and it has none of these things.
Now for me that's fine - I value the things that the Tesla does have and I can't wait for my P85 to arrive in a couple of months' time and to sell the A8. But it was a real challenge to sell the idea of the Model S to my wife who isn't happy about losing the adaptive cruise and the rear seat entertainment and the electric blinds. None of these features is "necessary" but it doesn't change the fact that these are what luxury car buyers in Europe expect their cars to have and the lack of these will hurt Tesla in the short-term.
NONE of these features are necessary. Almost none of the Model S's features are necessary. It's not necessary to have a sound system at all, or navigation, or electric seats, or heated seats, or leather, or high performance, or alloy wheels, or air conditioning or metallic paint. Why on earth should any of this be about necessity?
The Model S is a luxury car. It's priced to compete directly with German luxury cars. A specced up Model S is as expensive as a top end Mercedes S Class in Europe. And while the Model S has some amazing features that the German cars can't provide, there's no point denying that it's completely outclassed on cabin quality and driver aids.
My 8 year old Audi A8 has radar guided cruise control, proper iPod integration, ventilated massaging seats, an integrated rear seat entertainment system, 4 zone climate control, electrically adjustable memory headrests, electric rear and side window blinds and acres of rear legroom. The Model S is a brand new car, it's more expensive than the equivalent new A8 would be today, and it has none of these things.
Now for me that's fine - I value the things that the Tesla does have and I can't wait for my P85 to arrive in a couple of months' time and to sell the A8. But it was a real challenge to sell the idea of the Model S to my wife who isn't happy about losing the adaptive cruise and the rear seat entertainment and the electric blinds. None of these features is "necessary" but it doesn't change the fact that these are what luxury car buyers in Europe expect their cars to have and the lack of these will hurt Tesla in the short-term.
SwedishAdvocate
Active Member
Going 250 km/h or faster on the Autobahn in an ICE car is not sustainable. It will never be sustainable. The CO2-level in the atmosphere is currently around 400 ppm. As long as it’s above 350 ppm, the global mean sea-level will continue to rise. And we blew passed 350 ppm in 1988 (!) The global mean sea level is currently about 23 cm higher than in 1880 and is currently rising around 3 mm a year. And if you take a look at that graph, you’ll see that the trend does not look good…
So I guess the Model S is targeting people who have a conscience.
Those that doesn’t have a conscience then? Well, until they can buy an electric car that’s faster in every way, has longer range than anything else and can be recharged faster than anything else – until then, I’m guessing they simply won’t give a s[*beep*].
Unless they are forced to pretend to ‘care’…
From June 1, 2013. Skip to 2:29:
Edit: I will follow up on this post, but I have to prioritize work right now, so it may take a while.
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dirkhh
Middle-aged Member
Lane departure warning. Blind spot detection. Driver awareness detection. Adaptive cruise control. Night vision (IR) / HUD.
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And you are back to telling people what they should want instead of realizing what they (correctly or not) perceive that they want.
It's like telling you, when you ask for an EV, that you should drive a Diesel because "you don't need an EV".
I repeat - it doesn't matter what YOU THINK that matters to the potential buyers. If they think they need or want blind spot detection, lane departure warning or any of the other features... that's what matters to explain the rather slow uptake in Germany and other European countries.
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Completely irrelevant. People do it. In their BMW, Mercedes, Audi. And they expect to be able to do that in a 70k EUR luxury car.
And the sales numbers of these cars in Germany show that plenty of people don't care if you consider that sustainable.
Insulting the people that don't agree with you? That's a great marketing strategy.
The reality today is that there is a huge subsection of the population that doesn't see things your way. And if you want them to buy a Tesla telling them that they are wrong or insulting them is one strategy - I politely suggest that maybe it is not the best way to win them over, though.
Another approach would be to close the gap with Model S V2. Higher quality interior. Availability of many of the features considered standard in this price segment. Better range, higher top speed.
Just saying.
The Model S is not a luxury car. It's not trying to compete on cabin quality. You can spend the money on cabin luxuries, or you can spend it on batteries and electric drivetrain that eliminate the need for an internal combustion engine, all the service that entails, and buying gasoline or diesel fuel which is taxed heavily in Europe. Maybe that won't appeal to the majority of buyers of German luxury cars, but it should appeal to enough to keep the Tesla factory busy.
dirkhh
Middle-aged Member
But exactly that explains its limited success in Germany.
It appeals to people who want an electric drive train at the price point of a luxury car and with painfully limited range at Autobahn speed.
Even at $8/Gallon for gasoline that still isn't enough to win over more than a few hundred people a month. With the German car makers selling tens of thousands of cars in the same price range during the same period.
dirkhh
Middle-aged Member
I am certain that there will be an increasing market for Tesla in Germany. As Tesla improves the product more people will be willing to make the trade-off required to drive a Tesla.
The argument that so many people here keep making is a very valid one: you may get less "luxury sedan" but you get more "battery powered rocket ship" (to quote my wife). And over time more people will want just that. But at today's price point that market just isn't as big as many here seem to think. I keep trying to explain this different ways but it rubs many people just the wrong way.
In Norway, the effective cost means a Model S is comparable to a VW Golf. Looking good. Amazing sales.
In the US, the effective cost is that of a top of the line BMW 3 series. Attractive. Depends on what you prefer and it's a good buy.
In Germany, the effective cost is that of a well equipped Mercedes E Class. Add to that the oddity of average driving speed on the Autobahn and this is a much tougher sale. And while it's a great second car, it's a great second car for families who can afford two cars in the 70-100k EUR price range. And who value the drive train over perceived luxury or convenience or (perceived or real) safety equipment.
So yes, it will be successful, but I think not the current generation. The Model X makes no sense in Germany (SUVs are deeply unpopular), the Model E might be more competitive. But I /really/ hope for the second generation Model S - more refined, better equipment, more competitive against the E class or 5 series.
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
Let's start by stressing that it is not ME who thinks like those colleagues and people I was describing. My BMW 3-series coupe for example is ten years old now and hasn't got any of those gimmicky safety or comfort features either, nor has it the acceleration of the Model S, any version. And let's not even start to talk about the luggage space...
What I was trying to convey is why I think the current sales numbers in Germany are how they are and that they are not all that bad, especially under the circumstances for EVs in Germany in general, and high-end cars in particular.
Sure, the Model S powertrain is highly efficient, and the acceleration is phenomenal even on an S 60. But people over here use such high-end cars not mainly for going into town or taking their kids to school. Such cars are either company cars (that can often also be used for private purposes) or "first cars" that are used for long-distance (Autobahn) driving on a regular basis. And on the Autobahn, people don't drive at speeds that Americans are used to on the highway. Even 70 to 80 miles an hour is considered slow here by many if not most drivers on the Autobahn. And at such speeds and above, Model S just can't compete - at least not in the sense of getting to your destination quickly. Battery swapping imho is the only option that could win over those Germans who think that a journey from Hamburg to Munich, or Stuttgart to Berlin or whatever would take forever in an EV otherwise. Superchargers are nice for families who have to take a break on their holiday journey anyway, but business travelers who always seem to be in a hurry to get to their next meeting (those people that are constantly seen on the Autobahn, flashing their lights in the left lane - or better still, signalling left - while going 150+ miles per hour in their typical A6 or 5-series station wagon), those people will never put up with having to stop for half an hour several times on their journey no matter how revolutionary the Model S drivetrain may be.
Sure, we can call that "not seeing the forest for the trees", but over here, people like those I described form a large part of the customer basis for high-end, high-price cars like Model S.
Again, it is not ME who thinks like that, but it is why I can understand the current sales figures and put them - positively - into perspective.
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