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This. Longer road trips appear solved, but the scenario that gives me (not yet a Tesla owner) the most pause is the day, overnight, or weekend trip of 100-200 miles where an extra 20 minutes to supercharge, or the uncertainty of finding a destination charger that a) works and b) is unoccupied, adds a nontrivial amount of time.

ETA: Personal example.

Back in the fall my wife and I drove the Volt to Charlotte (90 miles away) for the evening to go to a concert. Venue parking had a couple of L2 chargers, but we couldn't get one to work and the other was occupied. With a Tesla, we would have had to stop at the Columbia supercharger on the way out or back to top up for 15-20 minutes (according to ABRP). Leaving town, we don't want to stop because we don't know how bad Charlotte traffic will be and we're probably running late already thanks to the babysitter. But we don't want to skip just in case there's a problem with the destination charger. Either way, our 90-minute-or-less travel time is now into into 2-hour territory.

Ironically, we happened to have a Model X that night for an overnight test drive, but were specifically asked by the dealer (not Tesla) not to put that many miles on it. So we didn't get to test the scenario.

I think that a lot of people don't really grasp that millions of Americans make weekend or overnight trips or even day trips where hitting up a super-charger, or any other charging solution for that matter, would be an extreme inconvenience.

A vehicle with a 250+ usable range solves this for a lot of people. They can drive to their cabin/rental/vacation destination without worrying about making a charging detour... then they can get a little bit of range back while they are there by charging @ 110V so that they have a bit of range for putzing around before they make the return trip.
 
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When you look at Tesla killer announcements, answer these key questions to determine if they will be competition:

1) Are they priced from $35k base and/or $40k with AP2.5 level tech?
2) Do they have a range of at least 210 miles? If they are coming out in 2 years, that number should be closer to 300 miles EPA not NEDC or what that Euro crap is.
3) When said company sells these cars, are they going to be selling them from dealerships? If so, add $1000 to the losses per car because they will have to pay the dealers to sell them. No service means no dealer wants to sell them.
4) How much are they going to cost to service. See #3, it best be close to 0 for the first 5 tears, or it wont be competitive. I am not talking about the plans that Tesla sells, those are not required. I am talking replacing the 12v a couple of times, wiper blades and fluids every couple of years and 1 break job ever 10 years.
5) When said company sells these cars are they going to take market share from Tesla, to do so they must have 3 of 4 of the following; greater range, lower cost and better styling and/or better charging network to do so. If they are not taking market share from Tesla, they are will be taking market share from their ICE brands and their ICE competitors. If every ICE company has a couple of models, they are all going to be lined up in a circular firing squad.
6) Where are the owners going to charge? Home is good and will work for most, but you need a decent charge network to have an EV be a real car. The Supercharger network is the bare minimum, not the ideal. The supercharger network of 5 years from now is the ideal and competition is 5-10 years behind.
7) Where are they going to get the batteries. 10K units is one thing, but that is not competition, that is a compliance car. Even if 10 companies come out with 2 models each and each is 10k production, that is less then what Tesla will produce next year with Model 3. Bolt will be 30k next year at $7-10k loss per car. In part, because the battery cells are $145/KWh, not the pack, but the cells. The pack adds a fair amount of cost as the packs are not just simple packaging. Tesla was at around $190/KWh for Packs a couple of years ago and dropped that cost by 30-35% with 2170 or $133/KWh. This is all guesstimates, but that would be a significant savings vs the Bolt which could be north of $200/KWh at the pack level. The bolt is currently the only other long range EV and its $2500 more, no charging network, and ugly. So it clearly does not compete because it cannot be the 3/4 criteria from above. Its also smaller, which should also be a criteria.
 
I congratulate Porch for attempting to counter-punch the MS. The Mission E looks like an EV without the front grill most legacy mfg put on their EV's. I think Elon welcomes the challenge because I sincerely believe he wants all the makers to convert to EV production.

Unfortunately, I don't think the Miss E is going to look like this prototype (which will not meet safety standards). I have seen leaked spy shots of the production Miss E and it doesn't look like the prototype, in fact I think it looks weirdmobile. I think the hoped for range is too optimistic. Dealer network will try to anti-sell the Miss E because there will be more service profit in an ICE Porch. And a viable Porch Supercharger network throughout the world is years away. Porch Miss E is where Tesla was with their MS 8/10 years ago. They have a lot of catching up to do and I sincerely wish them good luck.
 
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I congratulate Porch for attempting to counter-punch the MS. The Mission E looks like an EV without the front grill most legacy mfg put on their EV's. I think Elon welcomes the challenge because I sincerely believe he wants all the makers to convert to EV production.

Unfortunately, I don't think the Miss E is going to look like this prototype (which will not meet safety standards). I have seen leaked spy shots of the production Miss E and it doesn't look like the prototype, in fact I think it looks weirdmobile. I think the hoped for range is too optimistic. Dealer network will try to anti-sell the Miss E because there will be more service profit in an ICE Porch. And a viable Porch Supercharger network throughout the world is years away. Porch Miss E is where Tesla was with their MS 8/10 years ago. They have a lot of catching up to do and I sincerely wish them good luck.

Cool.... and some good points made however
i'm gonna move from my P85D ludi
once it's avail (24 months) and i'm not worried about porsche trying to anti-sell me the car i want.
i'm quite sure the production car will look almost identical to the prototype from all the info i've obtained.
 
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When you look at Tesla killer announcements, answer these key questions to determine if they will be competition:

1) Are they priced from $35k base and/or $40k with AP2.5 level tech?

Fair point... however, much like with the Model S I expect that the short battery version Model 3 will be short lived, there's a good chance it's a loss leader for Tesla and they will look to get out of selling it as quickly as possible or they will look for ways to cheapen it over time while keeping the same range so they lose less money on each one they sell.

2) Do they have a range of at least 210 miles? If they are coming out in 2 years, that number should be closer to 300 miles EPA not NEDC or what that Euro crap is.

As seen with the announced longer range Leaf and the Bolt, nanufacturers are shooting for a 250 mile range on their newer EVs. I would be extremely surprised to see a newly released EV in 2018 or 2019 have a 100 mile range.

3) When said company sells these cars, are they going to be selling them from dealerships? If so, add $1000 to the losses per car because they will have to pay the dealers to sell them. No service means no dealer wants to sell them.

This makes no sense to me. Tesla is the 'dealership' when you buy from them. If you think they are selling their cars for a lower price because they aren't leaving room for dealer profit, I think you are fooling yourself. What are the margins on the S? What are the Margins on a BMW 740? They are probably almost the same. Dealers make very little in profit on sales of new cars, they make most of the profit selling used cars and servicing the cars they sell.

You are looking at dealerships as 100% downside. There is an upside, which is why Apple, for example, sells at both their corporate stores AND still sells at every other retail chain like Target, Best Buy and even small mom and pop type outfits. They simply don't have enough retail stores to handle all of the volume out of their corporate stores... not to mention that there isn't a corporate store for the 50+ percent of America that doesn't live within 50 miles of a large city that has a corporate Apple store.

Someone in a medium sized town in Kansas, Iowa, Indiana, Montana, they are more likely to buy a brand they can get locally and have serviced locally rather than buying a Tesla that they have to travel all day to get serviced... or hope that a ranger can come out and fix their car in X days.

4) How much are they going to cost to service. See #3, it best be close to 0 for the first 5 tears, or it wont be competitive. I am not talking about the plans that Tesla sells, those are not required. I am talking replacing the 12v a couple of times, wiper blades and fluids every couple of years and 1 break job ever 10 years.

So you think Tesla is inexpensive to own long term? We don't have good data yet but early indications are they will be anything BUT inexpensive to own long term. Model S owners who are having things fail during the warranty are seeing what Tesla would be charging for those repairs if the car were not covered under warranty and the costs are obscene. As in, $10,000 drive unit replacements, $18,000 battery replacements, $5,000 center screen replacements... or, if you have something minor fail, like one of the presenting door handles, $2,000.

I think Tesla will be anything BUT affordable to own long term, even their recommended annual service is probably going to be hundreds of dollars per year whether the car needs anything or not.

5) When said company sells these cars are they going to take market share from Tesla, to do so they must have 3 of 4 of the following; greater range, lower cost and better styling and/or better charging network to do so. If they are not taking market share from Tesla, they are will be taking market share from their ICE brands and their ICE competitors. If every ICE company has a couple of models, they are all going to be lined up in a circular firing squad.

You're forgetting brand loyalty. People are very loyal to the brands they trust. If someone is a VW person, or a Ford person or a BMW person they are likely to buy from that company if all other things are CLOSE even if they are not equal.

The one area where Tesla is head and shoulders above everyone else is charging network, so we'll have to see what happens with that over the next few years, or if the market really cares that much about taking long distance road trips with their EV. My experience is that range anxiety is more about day trips or weekend trips than long distance driving. You might not need a super-charger network for that type of driving if the car has a decent range, not to mention that the average family owns 2+ cars and for most people one of them will still be a gas burner and probably an SUV.

6) Where are the owners going to charge? Home is good and will work for most, but you need a decent charge network to have an EV be a real car. The Supercharger network is the bare minimum, not the ideal. The supercharger network of 5 years from now is the ideal and competition is 5-10 years behind.

You don't need a charge network as proven by the Leaf which has sold quite well. Many are buying EVs as commuter cars. Model 3 range extends this into having a car that is good for commuting or driving to and from destinations outside of cities that you can get to in an hour or two. Frankly I think the need for a massive EV network is overblown because you always leave home with a full "tank" of fuel.

Far bigger problem is delivering charging infrastructure to the millions of renters who don't have the ability or means of installing a charging station near the place they park every day. Drive around the streets of any large US city and look at the thousands of cars parked every night on the street in front of the small homes and apartments. None of those cars is a candidate for EV replacement right now because most people aren't going to hang out waiting for their turn at a super-charger for an hour or town when they are going to be late for work if they don't charge their fancy EV.

This is probably one reason that GM is still holding out hope for hydrogen as the real long term solution.

7) Where are they going to get the batteries. 10K units is one thing, but that is not competition, that is a compliance car. Even if 10 companies come out with 2 models each and each is 10k production, that is less then what Tesla will produce next year with Model 3. Bolt will be 30k next year at $7-10k loss per car. In part, because the battery cells are $145/KWh, not the pack, but the cells. The pack adds a fair amount of cost as the packs are not just simple packaging. Tesla was at around $190/KWh for Packs a couple of years ago and dropped that cost by 30-35% with 2170 or $133/KWh. This is all guesstimates, but that would be a significant savings vs the Bolt which could be north of $200/KWh at the pack level. The bolt is currently the only other long range EV and its $2500 more, no charging network, and ugly. So it clearly does not compete because it cannot be the 3/4 criteria from above. Its also smaller, which should also be a criteria.

They will get the batteries from China. Tesla is opening a factory in China and early indications are that they will build a giga factory in China. The Chinese government will do to Tesla batteries what they did to Solar panels. Get the IP for free and then turn that IP over to government friendly businesses run by party connected types who will crank out similar but cheaper products. China has access to the bulk of rare earth minerals.
 
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On the first point, two questions

What percent of the market for long range (over 200 miles) EVs, outside of China, starting at $40K and under do you think Tesla will have in 2020?

Do you think such vehicles will remain "supply constrained" in 2020?
 
Fair point... however, much like with the Model S I expect that the short battery version Model 3 will be short lived, there's a good chance it's a loss leader for Tesla and they will look to get out of selling it as quickly as possible or they will look for ways to cheapen it over time while keeping the same range so they lose less money on each one they sell.



As seen with the announced longer range Leaf and the Bolt, nanufacturers are shooting for a 250 mile range on their newer EVs. I would be extremely surprised to see a newly released EV in 2018 or 2019 have a 100 mile range.



This makes no sense to me. Tesla is the 'dealership' when you buy from them. If you think they are selling their cars for a lower price because they aren't leaving room for dealer profit, I think you are fooling yourself. What are the margins on the S? What are the Margins on a BMW 740? They are probably almost the same. Dealers make very little in profit on sales of new cars, they make most of the profit selling used cars and servicing the cars they sell.

You are looking at dealerships as 100% downside. There is an upside, which is why Apple, for example, sells at both their corporate stores AND still sells at every other retail chain like Target, Best Buy and even small mom and pop type outfits. They simply don't have enough retail stores to handle all of the volume out of their corporate stores... not to mention that there isn't a corporate store for the 50+ percent of America that doesn't live within 50 miles of a large city that has a corporate Apple store.

Someone in a medium sized town in Kansas, Iowa, Indiana, Montana, they are more likely to buy a brand they can get locally and have serviced locally rather than buying a Tesla that they have to travel all day to get serviced... or hope that a ranger can come out and fix their car in X days.



So you think Tesla is inexpensive to own long term? We don't have good data yet but early indications are they will be anything BUT inexpensive to own long term. Model S owners who are having things fail during the warranty are seeing what Tesla would be charging for those repairs if the car were not covered under warranty and the costs are obscene. As in, $10,000 drive unit replacements, $18,000 battery replacements, $5,000 center screen replacements... or, if you have something minor fail, like one of the presenting door handles, $2,000.

I think Tesla will be anything BUT affordable to own long term, even their recommended annual service is probably going to be hundreds of dollars per year whether the car needs anything or not.



You're forgetting brand loyalty. People are very loyal to the brands they trust. If someone is a VW person, or a Ford person or a BMW person they are likely to buy from that company if all other things are CLOSE even if they are not equal.

The one area where Tesla is head and shoulders above everyone else is charging network, so we'll have to see what happens with that over the next few years, or if the market really cares that much about taking long distance road trips with their EV. My experience is that range anxiety is more about day trips or weekend trips than long distance driving. You might not need a super-charger network for that type of driving if the car has a decent range, not to mention that the average family owns 2+ cars and for most people one of them will still be a gas burner and probably an SUV.



You don't need a charge network as proven by the Leaf which has sold quite well. Many are buying EVs as commuter cars. Model 3 range extends this into having a car that is good for commuting or driving to and from destinations outside of cities that you can get to in an hour or two. Frankly I think the need for a massive EV network is overblown because you always leave home with a full "tank" of fuel.

Far bigger problem is delivering charging infrastructure to the millions of renters who don't have the ability or means of installing a charging station near the place they park every day. Drive around the streets of any large US city and look at the thousands of cars parked every night on the street in front of the small homes and apartments. None of those cars is a candidate for EV replacement right now because most people aren't going to hang out waiting for their turn at a super-charger for an hour or town when they are going to be late for work if they don't charge their fancy EV.

This is probably one reason that GM is still holding out hope for hydrogen as the real long term solution.



They will get the batteries from China. Tesla is opening a factory in China and early indications are that they will build a giga factory in China. The Chinese government will do to Tesla batteries what they did to Solar panels. Get the IP for free and then turn that IP over to government friendly businesses run by party connected types who will crank out similar but cheaper products. China has access to the bulk of rare earth minerals.

So much wrong here, but I have so little time.

1) China batteries are not leaving china. For one, they are very specific to the Chinese market and not appropriate for long range EVs. Another reason is that China is literally choking themselves to death and must do everything just to survive. When you think about China as competition, you need to understand that what happens in China, stays in China. It will impact Tesla in China, but Tesla sells a different level car then most Chinese companies so I dont see it as an issue long term.
2) Dealers wont sell a car that they cannot make money from. Dealers are independent franchises. Tesla cant use a dealer network because there is no money in servicing EVs so Tesla does it break even. It is illegal for companies like GM to sell directly in places where they have dealerships so GM will have to pay dealers to sell their cars. Like with cash payments. Dealers already do not make any money selling cars, they make it all from service. There are no upsides to traditional dealerships, they are terrible places with one of the most frustrating sales process everywhere. The standard thing to do is wait several hours while your sales man goes to talk tot he sales manager and then threaten to walk out as they chase you.
3) Hydrogen is not a solution. Period. Tons of documentation on why, its to inefficient to convert sunlight to hydrogen then make battery power. Even if it was the same efficiency, which it never will be, the infrastructure to support it is much more complicated and expensive the charging stations as electricity is already everywhere.
4) Most people who buy S/X level cars dont keep them 10 years and if they do, they extend the warranty. Long term, EVs are much cheaper to maintain.
5) As far as charging goes. Its expanding fast, and electricity is everywhere. As more EVs hit the road, more apartments will offer charging. In Norway, charging is on the streets. Chicken and Egg situation, but what makes it easier is that electricity is already literally everywhere. No major infrastructure required, just L2 chargers.
6) the only explanation for the leaf not needing a large charging network is that it was the first EV. People who bought the leaf cared more about the environment then convenience and an 80 mile range car cant take long trips so you dont NEED a charging network for long distance driving if you can only make it across town and back.

Im sure there is much more wrong with your responses, but I have no time.
 
Turns out that the charging network will be the EV market barrier to entry. Factor in the expected improved building quality as Tesla gets bigger and more experienced, high level of customer service, software and network centric company DNA, I think that this is Tesla game to lose. If they keep executing, other luxury car companies should be really worried.
 
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Regarding CCS in yourope ... SCs are free, and when they are not you just store your credit card number in your tesla profile and use the stations. You pay later.

CCS in Europe are owned and run by a ***load of independent business, each of them having their own way of payment, more often than not they do not accept on-the-spot payment, you need to be 'member of a club' i.e. own the correct pre-payed card to charge at particular CCS station. This somewhat works for your local stations, but is a total PITA during longer travels into foreign countries. Unfortunately one discovers this gem when already to late.
 
We own a Model 3 and Model S and used to own a Nissan Leaf. I've driven a BMW i3, a Mercedes B200, a Chevy Bolt and a Ford Focus Electric. To compare these cars is to compare something designed, engineered and built in Silicon Valley to something from Detroit or Munich. None of these cars can hold a candle to the Model 3, let alone the Model S or X. To say otherwise would indicate you haven't driven them. True, some of their specifications and range are similar, but they aren't serious competition as long as Tesla can produce the Model 3 in quantity.

The build quality of my M3 is much better than my 2014 MS, and much much much better than my 2013 VIN 86XX. That said, my first MS, even with it's blemishes and mis-matched panels, was far superior to any car I'd ever had. And this is not about the mission. It's about a far superior car. There's reasons hundreds of thousands of people waited in line for hours to reserve a M3, even though we knew it would a year or two before seeing the vehicle.

Every day, Tesla gathers data on millions of miles of EV driving and autopilot. And what about the Supercharger network.