Everything wrong with V11 update / user interface.

[TexasTezla]

I live in Europe and notice how much more of a claim/law suit country the US is. Isn't it more likely that they will fix the issues we mention about car safety once traffic accidents happen because of them and people start suing Tesla instead of our complaints?

Undoubtedly...the thing is I think we are all pretty well aware more accidents are not likely to happen because of this update. Most of the "its dangerous and we are all going to die' brigade are just a few loose nuts here and there. Mostly it is just a case of personal dislike over actual safety issues.

 

[smogne41]

An average of all cold butts during R&D lol

Could very well be the case. So 33% will be too cold, and 33% will be too hot

 

[Boza]

Undoubtedly...the thing is I think we are all pretty well aware more accidents are not likely to happen because of this update. Most of the "its dangerous and we are all going to die' brigade are just a few loose nuts here and there. Mostly it is just a case of personal dislike over actual safety issues.

USA is very litigious, by design. However, the purchase contract enforces arbitration, by default. It is a parallel system to the legal one that, usually, favors the business, not the customer.
Also, mounting a class action lawsuit is expensive and lawyers would undertake it only if it has a very good chance of success. While some of the UI changes create dangerous driving conditions by forcing the driver to take their attention off driving in order to complete critical, driving-related functions, legally, that is somewhat murky. If there is a standard (I hope there is) then it will be more cut and dry situation; but then the NHTSA would intervene faster than any court.
I still think that, absent Tesla coming to their senses, the regulator is the next fastest thing. Otherwise, I believe in the market and I know that it will force a correction - but that will take a while. I will probably not/don’t want to own Tesla when that happens.

 

[TexasTezla]

While some of the UI changes create dangerous driving conditions by forcing the driver to take their attention off driving in order to complete critical, driving-related functions,

Laughable

 

[TexasTezla]

While some of the UI changes create dangerous driving conditions by forcing the driver to take their attention off driving in order to complete critical, driving-related functions

Name ONE "critical function" that is "dangerous" to do now in v11 that wasn't "dangerous" in v10...

 

[smogne41]

Name ONE "critical function" that is "dangerous" to do now in v11 that wasn't "dangerous" in v10...

Everybody already has, for 34 pages.

 

[sleepydoc]

USA is very litigious, by design. However, the purchase contract enforces arbitration, by default. It is a parallel system to the legal one that, usually, favors the business, not the customer.
Also, mounting a class action lawsuit is expensive and lawyers would undertake it only if it has a very good chance of success. While some of the UI changes create dangerous driving conditions by forcing the driver to take their attention off driving in order to complete critical, driving-related functions, legally, that is somewhat murky. If there is a standard (I hope there is) then it will be more cut and dry situation; but then the NHTSA would intervene faster than any court.
I still think that, absent Tesla coming to their senses, the regulator is the next fastest thing. Otherwise, I believe in the market and I know that it will force a correction - but that will take a while. I will probably not/don’t want to own Tesla when that happens.

Some other considerations -
As you said, the contract forces arbitration. Among other things, this keeps any proceedings private so the public is not privy them. I'd also be willing to bet that there is language around features in software updates.

Class action lawsuits are long, multi year processes typically orchestrated by firms specializing in them. They also typically primarily benefit the law firm, not the consumer.

Regardless I'd be surprised if users/owners have any legal basis for a claim. Ultimately all the required functions are technically available, even if they're harder to access and require more time with your eyes off the road so while the overwhelming majority of people think it's worse they can't claim a loss in the legal sense.

What's more, proving that accidents are caused by the interface is a tall order. Unlike issues such as the brakes failing one can't say the accidents are 100% caused by the interface. Accidents are frequently multifactorial with many contributing factors. Showing that the interface contributes would involve a large study looking at accident rates before and after accounting for conditions, and other confounding variables. Obviously that's not going to happen.

We know that distraction causes accidents. We know that the new interface is more difficult to use than the old one requiring more time with your eyes off the road. Saying that it will lead to more accidents is a logical conclusion. Blindly saying 'there's no proof!' is a short-sighted and foolhardy approach.

 

[MacNeil]

Everybody already has, for 34 pages.

To be fair, a considerable portion of the comments on this and other forums do not relate to "critical driving-related functions". In my opinion those critical functions would include wipers, defrosters, lights? but not seat heaters, audio, phone calls, tire pressure checks, energy efficiency monitoring, etc. Those latter items are things that the driver should only be dealing with when it is safe to do so. Like many other aspects of driving, there is a certain amount of self discipline required.

 

[Boza]

Also, there is a huge difference between automotive and aerospace, in terms of regulation. V11 simply cannot happen on a plane. They have to prove that it is beneficial and safe before they deploy it on a plane and, if it is substantially different, they must provide training. FAA must certify the plane or system before it goes out. It is prevention. The burden of proof is on the manufacturer.
With automotive you can do pretty much anything. There are rules you have to follow but there is no certification in the FAA sense. It is on you and if you brake the rules then NHTSA will go after you. It is detection. The burden of proof is on the regulator.
Let’s take the defogger, for example. It is an important system and, in the aircraft scenario, Tesla has to prove that hiding the button is advantageous from functionality perspective before they receive the OK from the regulator. In the cars example, the regulator has to prove that hiding the button causes danger. There is always the argument that you can stop and adjust the defogger (like I did). It is a ridiculous proposition but it is an argument against the claim that it is inherently dangerous. (Burden of proof in the legal system is different than the one used in everyday life) The presumption is that you, as a driver, remained in control all the time - you can always stop. Vs. brakes, for example, where your ability to control the car is completely removed.
Also, the class action process is so complicated and long that most people would simply sell the car (that is what I would do).
So, no, the likelihood of a class action because of V11 is very, very low.

 

[sleepydoc]

To be fair, a considerable portion of the comments on this and other forums do not relate to "critical driving-related functions". In my opinion those critical functions would include wipers, defrosters, lights? but not seat heaters, audio, phone calls, tire pressure checks, energy efficiency monitoring, etc. Those latter items are things that the driver should only be dealing with when it is safe to do so. Like many other aspects of driving, there is a certain amount of self discipline required.

I would put seat heaters in the 'critical functions' category. They're intended to work with the climate control system and are specifically included in many EVs because they save energy. I'm also including climate control as a critical function which can be argued, but when it's -20º F/-30º C outside I don't think many people will argue!

 

[MacNeil]

I would put seat heaters in the 'critical functions' category. They're intended to work with the climate control system and are specifically included in many EVs because they save energy. I'm also including climate control as a critical function which can be argued, but when it's -20º F/-30º C outside I don't think many people will argue!

I certainly agree that being able to heat (or cool) the cabin is pretty much essential and that having seat heaters is pretty nice in cold weather. The need to immediately move the cabin temperature or seat heater up or down a notch while driving would never be critical in my mind. As opposed to the defroster/defogger, also part of climate control, which may need immediate adjustment in some situations.

 

[lensovet]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that voice control is supported in what, 3 languages? Teslas are all around the world in many more countries than that. Those people can't use voice commands even if they wanted to as a "workaround" even if they have perfect service.

Speaking of voice commands. Tried "redial" the other day and it had no idea what that meant. Really?

 

[Boza]

Voice commands are a nice gimmick, not a critical system control UI.

 

[TexasTezla]

Everybody already has, for 34 pages.

I asked for "dangerous" not just complaining because they don't like the UI...I didn't think anyone could mention one! LOL. Some of you have mentioned what you call critical functions but NONE of these in the new UI are now dangerous to realize! That is what I laugh at!

 

[jaqueh]

Voice commands are a nice gimmick, not a critical system control UI.

I use voice controls all the time on all of my devices, lg tv, iphone, macbook, and model 3. I know things will be right a bit over 50% of the time; the model 3 is no exception.

 

[TexasTezla]

To be fair, a considerable portion of the comments on this and other forums do not relate to "critical driving-related functions". In my opinion those critical functions would include wipers, defrosters, lights? but not seat heaters, audio, phone calls, tire pressure checks, energy efficiency monitoring, etc. Those latter items are things that the driver should only be dealing with when it is safe to do so. Like many other aspects of driving, there is a certain amount of self discipline required.

Totally agree with you on this. My interest is also to understand why some consider the realizing of these functions are now somehow "dangerous"? Let's take wipers...how is it dangerous to press the stalk and then select what you want to do with wipers? How is swiping up from anywhere on the bottom of the screen, to then select what you want to do with seat heaters, dangerous? It may be one more move (which you would do without looking!) but how is it dangerous? I don't care if people dislike v11, that's their right...but dangerous? That for me is laughable nonsense that I will continue to comment on.

 

[Amped412]

This version of software has been on the new Model S since June 2021. No investigations of safety by regulators have started. No investigations of safety will start.

 

[sleepydoc]

Got it....the only criteria is whether people are suddenly crashing their cars left and right. Personally, I have a higher standard for Tesla (or any car I drive.)

 

[Boza]

Totally agree with you on this. My interest is also to understand why some consider the realizing of these functions are now somehow "dangerous"? Let's take wipers...how is it dangerous to press the stalk and then select what you want to do with wipers? How is swiping up from anywhere on the bottom of the screen, to then select what you want to do with seat heaters, dangerous? It may be one more move (which you would do without looking!) but how is it dangerous? I don't care if people dislike v11, that's their right...but dangerous? That for me is laughable nonsense that I will continue to comment on.

Let me compare two use cases of common functions (probably not in Texas but in quite a few other parts of the world): defogger (arguably, it could be critical because it may require immediate attention) and seat warmers (not so critical because you can choose the moment to activate - unless your partner asks you to do it).

V10 defogger: Touching the icon, not looking. Full attention to the road.
V11 defogger: Turn on HVAC. Swipe up. Look at the screen (sometimes I get the full menu; sometimes I get the short menu). Decision point:
- If the small menu shows up press the mini defogger icon.
- If the large menu shows up press the big defogger icon.

Look back at the road. Takes about 500ms to refocus attention. Total distraction - at least one second (incl. the need to make a decision). Functional benefit: negative. Aesthetically: debatable.

V10 seat warmer: Not looking. Touch the icon. Full attention to the road.
V11 seat warmer. Turn on the HVAC. Swipe up. Look at the screen (sometimes I get the full menu; sometimes I get the short menu). Decision point:
- If the small menu shows up press the mini seat warmer icon.
- If the large menu shows up press one of the big seat warmer icon (there are two different icons with the same function).

Turn off the HVAC. Look back at the road. Takes about 500ms to refocus attention.
Total distraction: About 2 seconds distraction. Functional benefit: negative. Aesthetically: debatable. In this case I would point out that you have to engage/disengage a totally irrelevant system which also leads to unnecessary wear of the HVAC compressor.

Does increased period of lack of attention to the road lead to more danger? I have not done a study but I would make a wild guess, that is supported by hundreds of studies.

 

[TexasTezla]

Let me compare two use cases of common functions (probably not in Texas but in quite a few other parts of the world): defogger (arguably, it could be critical because it may require immediate attention) and seat warmers (not so critical because you can choose the moment to activate - unless your partner asks you to do it).

V10 defogger: Touching the icon, not looking. Full attention to the road.
V11 defogger: Turn on HVAC. Swipe up. Look at the screen (sometimes I get the full menu; sometimes I get the short menu). Decision point:
- If the small menu shows up press the mini defogger icon.
- If the large menu shows up press the big defogger icon.

Look back at the road. Takes about 500ms to refocus attention. Total distraction - at least one second (incl. the need to make a decision). Functional benefit: negative. Aesthetically: debatable.

V10 seat warmer: Not looking. Touch the icon. Full attention to the road.
V11 seat warmer. Turn on the HVAC. Swipe up. Look at the screen (sometimes I get the full menu; sometimes I get the short menu). Decision point:
- If the small menu shows up press the mini seat warmer icon.
- If the large menu shows up press one of the big seat warmer icon (there are two different icons with the same function).

Turn off the HVAC. Look back at the road. Takes about 500ms to refocus attention.
Total distraction: About 2 seconds distraction. Functional benefit: negative. Aesthetically: debatable. In this case I would point out that you have to engage/disengage a totally irrelevant system which also leads to unnecessary wear of the HVAC compressor.

Does increased period of lack of attention to the road lead to more danger? I have not done a study but I would make a wild guess, that is supported by hundreds of studies.

Your 'study' is flawed. Defogger is NEVER instantaneous so immediacy is out of the question. Milliseconds are irrelevant here. Seat warmers are NEVER critical, for ANY reason, again, milliseconds are irrelevant.

As you say you don't have to look at the screen for seat heaters nor defog in v10 (for which I commend your muscle memory!), I can easily say the same thing for v11...as for getting two sizes of screen...never happened to me and never heard about it before. Swiping up from the bottom of the screen brings up the same screen, every time. You have to actually hit the < or > buttons to get the short menu...you need to practice the swipe up, its quite easy.

Actually you WANT aircon to come on for defog...it helps to remove moisture from the air.

I get you don't like v11 and now you dislike Tesla, but trying to turn this dislike into 'its dangerous' really doesn't wash.