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First pedestrian killed by Autopilot, family sues

VT_EE

Active Member
Apr 22, 2017
2,077
2,777
Maryland
So he had TACC on (aka normal adaptive cruise control) and it sped up when the car in front of it moved over. LOL. This is how adaptive cruise control works on all makes. I also found the “rapid” acceleration funny given that it went from 15km/h to a whooping 38km/h at impact. 38km:h is very slow. This suit is BS.
 

MXLRplus

Active Member
Mar 11, 2020
1,599
2,803
Eastvale, CA
So he had TACC on (aka normal adaptive cruise control) and it sped up when the car in front of it moved over. LOL. This is how adaptive cruise control works on all makes. I also found the “rapid” acceleration funny given that it went from 15km/h to a whooping 38km/h at impact. 38km:h is very slow. This suit is BS.

Actually some cars will nail the brakes when ACC is active and a pedestrian is in your gunsight. Really. I did some testing with Cadillac's system. It honestly will ID a human at day or night and will warn and then slam the brakes to the floor to protect the pedestrian.

But remember other automakers are far, far, far behind Tesla in these areas. My testing was done years ago.
 

VT_EE

Active Member
Apr 22, 2017
2,077
2,777
Maryland
Actually some cars will nail the brakes when ACC is active and a pedestrian is in your gunsight. Really. I did some testing with Cadillac's system. It honestly will ID a human at day or night and will warn and then slam the brakes to the floor to protect the pedestrian.

But remember other automakers are far, far, far behind Tesla in these areas. My testing was done years ago.
If memory serves me correctly, Tesla’s pedestrian avoidance system did very well compared to other brands during European regulator tests last year. None of the systems were perfect though, especially in poor lighting.
 

MXLRplus

Active Member
Mar 11, 2020
1,599
2,803
Eastvale, CA
If memory serves me correctly, Tesla’s pedestrian avoidance system did very well compared to other brands during European regulator tests last year. None of the systems were perfect though, especially in poor lighting.

Apparently not in Japan it seems.

The Cadillac uses advanced (gen3) passive thermal imaging, it can ID human threats at >300m. Cadillac was most likely not represented in European tests. With a 57% European markup, it will always be a niche brand.
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
10,869
12,588
Riverside Co. CA
Tesla faces lawsuit after Model X on autopilot with "dozing driver" blamed for fatal crash

The family allege that the car accelerated when the vehicle it was following switched lanes. The driver was dozing but had his hands on the wheel so the car failed to detect his inattention, or for that matter the poor guy it crashed in to.

So.. I am not going click the link because I feel these titles are clickbait... but someone explain to me why TESLA is getting sued, and not the "dozing driver" who is actually at fault, beside deeper pockets?
 

J1mbo

Active Member
Aug 20, 2013
1,609
1,458
UK
They had been involved in another accident.

It's a pretty sad story, and the reaction of the Tesla - speeding up when the car in front changes lanes, not reacting to a car that is not fully in the same lane as the Tesla - is something anyone with experience of Autopilot with pre-2020 sw will recognise.
 

diplomat33

Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Aug 3, 2017
8,407
11,746
Terre Haute, IN USA
So.. I am not going click the link because I feel these titles are clickbait... but someone explain to me why TESLA is getting sued, and not the "dozing driver" who is actually at fault, beside deeper pockets?

Because there is a lot more money in suing Tesla than there is in suing some lone individual.
 
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diplomat33

Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Aug 3, 2017
8,407
11,746
Terre Haute, IN USA
I asked "beside deeper pockets"

I did not see that part.

But to answer your question, the lawsuit is suing Tesla, rather than the driver, because they are arguing that Tesla is responsible. The lawsuit alleges that there is a flaw in the technology as well as a failure of the technology to alert the driver or stop for the pedestrian:
"According to the documents, the incident showed a "patent defect" as the car did not issue alerts to the drowsy driver because his hands were on the wheel. They alleged the system failed to recognize pedestrians and engage a braking system."
Tesla faces lawsuit after Model X on autopilot with "dozing driver" blamed for fatal crash
 

bd7349

Member
Apr 3, 2013
189
232
Boston, MA
On the other hand, see what AP can do nowadays:


Experienced this myself about 5 times this weekend when taking a casual drive around trying to go through rural intersections. At many points my car hit the brakes hard when it thought it was going to hit a cyclist or pedestrian. Sad to hear the pedestrian in OP’s link was killed, but the latest software seems to be really good at tracking people and braking if necessary.
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
10,869
12,588
Riverside Co. CA
I did not see that part.

But to answer your question, the lawsuit is suing Tesla, rather than the driver, because they are arguing that Tesla is responsible. The lawsuit alleges that there is a flaw in the technology as well as a failure of the technology to alert the driver or stop for the pedestrian:
"According to the documents, the incident showed a "patent defect" as the car did not issue alerts to the drowsy driver because his hands were on the wheel. They alleged the system failed to recognize pedestrians and engage a braking system."
Tesla faces lawsuit after Model X on autopilot with "dozing driver" blamed for fatal crash

So, the argument is "its the cars fault for not waking me up when I fell asleep and protecting the person"....

I get really frustrated in our "sue happy" culture, especially when its dumb "blame shifting". This is the classic "Sue Mcdonalds because I was burned by putting a hot coffee cup in my lap while I was driving" crap. "its not my fault I was dozing and killed someone, it has to be the fault of the company that makes the systems that try to prevent this. Even though if I was driving another car without these systems, I still would have killed a person.... because I was in THIS car, it should have prevented this, so its not my [email protected]##$Q$"


its just dumb, and an attempt to shift blame like so many do. its dumb.
 

mtndrew1

Active Member
May 12, 2015
1,371
3,884
Gardena, CA
Apparently not in Japan it seems.

The Cadillac uses advanced (gen3) passive thermal imaging, it can ID human threats at >300m. Cadillac was most likely not represented in European tests. With a 57% European markup, it will always be a niche brand.

You would make great friends with McRat who praises GM ad nauseam.

Tesla’s pedestrian detection always scores well in comparison to other automakers and improves over the air. It is one of the best performers in this segment.
 

MXLRplus

Active Member
Mar 11, 2020
1,599
2,803
Eastvale, CA
You would make great friends with McRat who praises GM ad nauseam.

Tesla’s pedestrian detection always scores well in comparison to other automakers and improves over the air. It is one of the best performers in this segment.

I have tested over 100 different cars, trucks, and motorcycles this century. I'll give credit where it is due. Obviously I give Tesla $89,000 of credit after testing all it's competition except the Taycan (need to do after C19).
 

diplomat33

Average guy who loves autonomous vehicles
Aug 3, 2017
8,407
11,746
Terre Haute, IN USA
So, the argument is "its the cars fault for not waking me up when I fell asleep and protecting the person"....

That's part of it. Since it is a driver assist, it should alert the driver since the driver is responsible. After all, how can you have a system that depends on the driver to monitor if the driver falls asleep at the wheel and there is no mechanism to alert the driver? The driver can't monitor if they are asleep. And if there is no mechanism to make sure that the driver is able to monitor and the system is dependent on the driver being able to monitor, that's a weakness. That is why every advanced driver assist system (other than Tesla) uses a driver facing camera to make sure the driver is able to perform their role of monitoring.

The other part of the argument is that the system was on and it did not perform its function correctly. Teslas are equipped with pedestrian detection. So if the system is on and it did not stop for a pedestrian, then the system did not do what it was supposed to do, did it?

But frankly, I feel like there is a double standard here. On one hand, we add more and more advanced systems and claim the car is becoming more autonomous and we give the car credit every time it does something right. But when the car does something wrong, we blame the driver. If we are going to give the car credit when it avoids a pedestrian, shouldn't we also blame the car when it hits a pedestrian?
 

jjrandorin

Moderator, Model 3, Tesla Energy Forums
Nov 28, 2018
10,869
12,588
Riverside Co. CA
That's part of it. Since it is a driver assist, it should alert the driver since the driver is responsible. After all, how can you have a system that depends on the driver to monitor if the driver falls asleep at the wheel and there is no mechanism to alert the driver? The driver can't monitor if they are asleep. And if there is no mechanism to make sure that the driver is able to monitor and the system is dependent on the driver being able to monitor, that's a weakness. That is why every advanced driver assist system (other than Tesla) uses a driver facing camera to make sure the driver is able to perform their role of monitoring.

The other part of the argument is that the system was on and it did not perform its function correctly. Teslas are equipped with pedestrian detection. So if the system is on and it did not stop for a pedestrian, then the system did not do what it was supposed to do, did it?

But frankly, I feel like there is a double standard here. On one hand, we add more and more advanced systems and claim the car is becoming more autonomous and we give the car credit every time it does something right. But when the car does something wrong, we blame the driver. If we are going to give the car credit when it avoids a pedestrian, shouldn't we also blame the car when it hits a pedestrian?


No,

Not until the systems are sold as "you can fall asleep and the car will take you to your destination, which none are currently sold that way". It is ALWAYS (always always always always the DRIVER who is supposed to have control of the car. Accidents happen, but They are the fault of the driver in almost all cases. There is absolutely ZERO NONE ZIP cases where "dozing at the wheel" and an accident happens would be someone or somethings fault other than the driver who fell asleep. None.
 

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