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First pedestrian killed by Autopilot, family sues

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I have tested over 100 different cars, trucks, and motorcycles this century. I'll give credit where it is due. Obviously I give Tesla $89,000 of credit after testing all it's competition except the Taycan (need to do after C19).

Any actual documentation of a pedestrian detection system performing better than Tesla’s in a comparison? I know euro NCAP and IIHS rate Tesla’s pedestrian detection at the top of the heap and the system gets more capable with updates. They’ve tested a bunch of cars too.

How’s the I-PACE?
 
No,

Not until the systems are sold as "you can fall asleep and the car will take you to your destination, which none are currently sold that way". It is ALWAYS (always always always always the DRIVER who is supposed to have control of the car. Accidents happen, but They are the fault of the driver in almost all cases. There is absolutely ZERO NONE ZIP cases where "dozing at the wheel" and an accident happens would be someone or somethings fault other than the driver who fell asleep. None.

Yes, and that is why these lawsuits fail. The regulations say that the system is a driver assist so the driver is responsible no matter what. Which is pretty sweet for automakers because they can take credit when the system works but blame the driver when the system doesn't work.
 
The other part of the argument is that the system was on and it did not perform its function correctly. Teslas are equipped with pedestrian detection. So if the system is on and it did not stop for a pedestrian, then the system did not do what it was supposed to do, did it?

Are those safety systems guaranteed to work 100% of the time? Seat belts and airbags are designed to save lives in crashes, but aren't 100% effective.
 
Are those safety systems guaranteed to work 100% of the time? Seat belts and airbags are designed to save lives in crashes, but aren't 100% effective.

No they are not 100% effective but I am pretty sure automakers are liable if a fault is found in a safety system like the seat belt or airbag and that fault can be connected to an injury or death.
 
When you arm chair lawyers get your law degrees maybe your opinions will be anything but ignorant. @diplomat33 is the only poster to not be a lazy complainer about OUR legal system.

This is a product liability issue. AP didn't work as designed and it failed to adhere to it's limited warnings on operation. The wheel torque sensor is defective for it's purpose. It's clearly badly engineered with regard to driver monitoring. Tesla is going to lose and should. They profit from a poorly designed product and need to do better. The innocent pedestrian is being called sue happy by sociopaths that blame a dead person's family for trying to get justice. Sick. Tesla should be held to account for it's failures as should the driver. Both are at fault.

weird-nerds-valid-criticism-elon-musk-keanu-reeves-wholesome-100-66069139.png
 
Tesla is going to lose and should.

No, they won't.

They profit from a poorly designed product and need to do better.

Yes, they do. There are so many badly designed parts that I've lost count over time.

The innocent pedestrian is being called sue happy by sociopaths that blame a dead person's family for trying to get justice

I also haven't clicked on the link so I need to ask, did this happen on a street where a pedestrian was expected to be present/cross the road? If yes, then the only blame Tesla can have is allowing AP to be enabled there. Everything else is on the driver not paying attention. If, on the other hand, it happened on a highway, I honestly have no pity towards the pedestrian.
 
This is a product liability issue. AP didn't work as designed and it failed to adhere to it's limited warnings on operation. The wheel torque sensor is defective for it's purpose. It's clearly badly engineered with regard to driver monitoring. Tesla is going to lose and should. They profit from a poorly designed product and need to do better. The innocent pedestrian is being called sue happy by sociopaths that blame a dead person's family for trying to get justice. Sick. Tesla should be held to account for it's failures as should the driver. Both are at fault.

Tesla is far from the first company that combined lane-steering with adaptive cruise control, and then used a steering wheel torque sensor to make sure the driver was paying attention.

All these systems have serious limitations when it comes to detecting stopped cars or pedestrians. They all go to great lengths telling the user what all the limitations are.

All these systems are designed as driver assist systems where ALL the responsibility is on the driver.

When we get behind the wheel of a Tesla we assume 100% responsibility for an accident unless some defect in the car caused the accident. We assume 100% responsibility whether we're driving manually, in TACC or AP mode.

A defect in the car wasn't what caused this accident. What caused this accident was the driver falling asleep just like the driver falling asleep is the cause of so many fatality accidents.

Having limitations in the technology to detect a pedestrian isn't a defect.
Having limitations on the ability to monitor the driver is not a defect.

I completely agree that the steering wheel torque sensor is a horrible way of monitoring the driver, but that doesn't put liability for this accident on Tesla.

The driver is not just fully responsible for this accident, but they are also guilty of a crime. They were arrested after the accident happened.

Now keep in mind I'm not opposed to the idea of making L2 vehicles partially responsible for an accident. I think we're allowing companies to put too much responsibility on the driver while taking away the driving tasks. Especially if we consider things like Smart Summon where one can't possibly see everything from vantage point 100ft away from the vehicle or with NoA with auto-lane changes. Where the car will consistently pass on the left, but then once in a blue moon will decide to pass on the right. A person monitoring it isn't going to realize it goofed until it starts the lane change.

But, that isn't how L2 vehicles are sold. Instead the regulators have some control over what they can do. Like AP can do a lot more in the US than Europe. The regulators also control what kind of driver monitoring system they have to have. I believe in Europe they are going to start to require driver monitoring, and it can't be done with a silly torque sensor.
 
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also haven't clicked on the link so I need to ask, did this happen on a street where a pedestrian was expected to be present/cross the road? I

As I understand it a vehicle broke down on the freeway, and the Tesla crashed into that vehicle. That vehicle then collided with the pedestrian stranded on the side of the road.

After the accident happened the police arrested the driver, and threw him in jail. They didn't ask about whether AP was used or not.
 
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So, the argument is "its the cars fault for not waking me up when I fell asleep and protecting the person"....

No. The argument is that Tesla built a driver monitoring system to ensure that autopilot was used safely. If it wasn't necessary they would doubtless have not bothered building that feature into the car, and not have reduced the warning time for hands-off-wheel from minutes down to several seconds as it is now.

So they know they need to monitor the driver. They know it's important for safety. But their system is crap and doesn't notice when the driver is asleep.

It could also be argued that any significant change of speed or a change of operating mode (follow car in front to follow lane) should require acknowledgement by the driver. They require acknowledgement for lane changes... Except in "Mad Max" mode, because that's the kind of responsible safety minded engineering Tesla does.
 
Any actual documentation of a pedestrian detection system performing better than Tesla’s in a comparison? I know euro NCAP and IIHS rate Tesla’s pedestrian detection at the top of the heap and the system gets more capable with updates. They’ve tested a bunch of cars too.

Keep in mind that these systems are only designed to work up to a certain speed. For pedestrian detection it's usually about 30 MPH, same for rear-end collision detection. It's partly a safety thing, don't want false detections causing sudden braking at high speed. Also partly because the radar will pick up small stationary objects by the road like lamp posts and other street furniture at a distance and discard them, only considering them to be "in the road" when they get close enough that the width of the beam is only covering the path of the car (it's cone shaped).

In this case the car accelerated and then hit the pedestrian, so it's quite likely that it was going too fast for the pedestrian avoidance system to be working anyway.
 
As I understand it a vehicle broke down on the freeway, and the Tesla crashed into that vehicle. That vehicle then collided with the pedestrian stranded on the side of the road.

After the accident happened the police arrested the driver, and threw him in jail. They didn't ask about whether AP was used or not.

That doesn't seem to be the case according to the lawsuit. The Tesla crashed into the bikes and parked van, and you can see the victim on the right.

YEl1HDu.png
 
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That doesn't seem to be the case according to the lawsuit. The Tesla crashed into the bikes and parked van, and you can see the victim on the right.

YEl1HDu.png


If this is the case I don't think any of the blame will/should be shifted towards Tesla.

Even after years of them being around, some (a lot of) people still do not understand the limitations of autopilot.

When I keep saying that it will happily run into stationary objects (same as any other "smart" cruise control operated cars), I'm being told I'm crazy. The irony is that both sides usually disagree with that: fanbois say that it will not and that AP is the smartest invention known to man and haters will say that only Tesla does this, that it's broken and not working as intended.

For now this is not a fault, it's a known limitation, it's how radar cruise control works. Stationary objects are being filtered out. Sure AP cameras may or may not see something and brake but no one should rely on that. If anything, drivers should be paying even more attention while on AP rather than relaxing.
 
  • Disagree
Reactions: PhilDavid