Fisker Karma

[Al Sherman]

I consider the Karma a 4door version of the Roadster,

Where do you see ANY comparison? They both have 4 tires?

I'm sorry Fisker is failing. I'm sorry Fisker and Tesla haven't exactly gotten along. I think it's time to face the fact that you bought the wrong car. It doesn't make you dumb, or a bad person. Just one bad decision in a lifetime of decisions. Seems as if when you all get to Santana Row on Saturday (if that ever happens for whatever undefined reason) you should all just go in and make a reservation for a Model S.

Your hearts in the right place, you just bought the wrong car.

Edit: As far as the negative rep points for saying this; your credibility is limited since you didn't have the courage to identify yourself. However, I don't see how suggesting that someone move on with their life in a positive direction after making a bad decision is ever counterproductive.

 

[ipdamages]

Where do you see ANY comparison? They both have 4 tires?

...

Seems as if when you all get to Santana Row on Saturday (if that ever happens for whatever undefined reason) you should all just go in and make a reservation for a Model S.

Your hearts in the right place, you just bought the wrong car.

1. He already explained that the comparison was that the Karma was Fisker's first effort, and hence fraught with the difficulties of a virgin effort. Just like the Roadster.

2. It's quite presumptuous to say that he and Karma owners bought the wrong car, and that the Model S is the right car, so they should buy one. Perhaps the Karma's styling compared to the Model S was an important criterion. As many have said and written, the Model S as a design was not as creative and sexy as some wanted, including Franz. Many have pointed out the stylistic similarities of the Model S with cars like Jaguar and Hyundai and Chrysler. Also, the Karma is a PHEV, so a Model S is not the best alternate option for some Karma buyers. Maybe a Quattroporte or Gran Turismo. If you look at his posts at Fisker Buzz, and the posts of others, many seem to be quite happy with their cars. They are now of course concerned about future support, but they don't seem to wish that they had bought Model Ses.

(Edited out previous comment on reputation as I had misunderstood Al's comment)

 

[bonnie]

3. He doesn't need to "identify himself" to have credibility. Nor do you. Nor anyone on this forum. Judge his credibility by what he says. Whether I know your name has no bearing on my opinion of your post. Also, I fail to see where his credibility is called into doubt. He has expressed opinions. You can agree or disagree. But it isn't like he is trying to dupe people into some trickery or misrepresenting facts in some sinister manner.

I think this was referring to whoever left him negative reputation for his comment - they didn't sign it.

 

[ipdamages]

Ok, nooooooow I get it. Thanks, Bonnie, and I will now edit my post to clean that up.

 

[brianman]

I'm sorry Fisker is failing. I'm sorry Fisker and Tesla haven't exactly gotten along.

Agree.

I think it's time to face the fact that you bought the wrong car.

Disagree.
"...bought into a company having significant difficulties."
Would agree.

It doesn't make you dumb, or a bad person. Just one bad decision in a lifetime of decisions.

Almost agree. I'm not certain it was a bad decision so much as an unlucky one.

 

[SoCalGuy]

1. He already explained that the comparison was that the Karma was Fisker's first effort, and hence fraught with the difficulties of a virgin effort. Just like the Roadster.

2. It's quite presumptuous to say that he and Karma owners bought the wrong car, and that the Model S is the right car, so they should buy one. Perhaps the Karma's styling compared to the Model S was an important criterion. As many have said and written, the Model S as a design was not as creative and sexy as some wanted, including Franz. Many have pointed out the stylistic similarities of the Model S with cars like Jaguar and Hyundai and Chrysler. Also, the Karma is a PHEV, so a Model S is not the best alternate option for some Karma buyers. Maybe a Quattroporte or Gran Turismo. If you look at his posts at Fisker Buzz, and the posts of others, many seem to be quite happy with their cars. They are now of course concerned about future support, but they don't seem to wish that they had bought Model Ses.

(Edited out previous comment on reputation as I had misunderstood Al's comment)

ipd - agree with you and am thankful that there are more balanced less emotional folks at TMC. The Model S is a great car and has advantages over the Karma - the Karma is also a great car and has its advantages over the Model S. It's a shame to see FA go through these corporate troubles, but truth be told, the corporate management was absolutely terrible. There were a lot of great, smart and passionate folks that worked at FA and I've met many of them. Senior management however did not have the vision nor care about the details to deliver on the full potential. That's the greatest tragedy in this chapter of the EV story as it relates to the Karma and Fisker.

My hope was that Tesla and Fisker would force each other to dream bigger, work harder, become more creative and deliver truly advanced, uncompromised EV-based solutions that blow the Detroit, Germans and Asians totally out of the water. Compelling style, elegant and hyper efficient powertrain (I'm thinking pure EV with optional REx ala BMW i3), and world-class performance and luxury. Both the Karma and the Model S deliver their respective steps forward in this regard, but there is still much more distance to go.

 

[Al Sherman]

1. He already explained that the comparison was that the Karma was Fisker's first effort, and hence fraught with the difficulties of a virgin effort. Just like the Roadster.

2. It's quite presumptuous to say that he and Karma owners bought the wrong car, and that the Model S is the right car, so they should buy one. Perhaps the Karma's styling compared to the Model S was an important criterion. As many have said and written, the Model S as a design was not as creative and sexy as some wanted, including Franz. Many have pointed out the stylistic similarities of the Model S with cars like Jaguar and Hyundai and Chrysler. Also, the Karma is a PHEV, so a Model S is not the best alternate option for some Karma buyers. Maybe a Quattroporte or Gran Turismo. If you look at his posts at Fisker Buzz, and the posts of others, many seem to be quite happy with their cars. They are now of course concerned about future support, but they don't seem to wish that they had bought Model Ses.

(Edited out previous comment on reputation as I had misunderstood Al's comment)

WHEN? Did he explain the comparison? I don't see it.

I don't see how it's presumptuous at all. It's not a surprise to anyone here that I think the Model S is the right car. I don't see how it could be presumptuous to state my opinion. I definitely think the Karma was the wrong car. I'll think it regardless of how many cowards give me anonymous negative rep points. Fisker failed for many reasons obviously. But, the number one reason is that the product was NOT compelling. IF it were they would still be manufacturing them and selling them to people on the waiting list as fast as they can. As Tesla is with the Model S.

 

[Zythryn]

Al, you are mixing your opinion with concrete statements.
It is presumptuous to say "the Fisker is the wrong car". It is not presumptuous to say 'for me, the Fisker is the wrong car'.
Fisker built a statement, and many people absolutely love the styling of the car. I do not, and many others do not, but many do.
Fisker's biggest problem, in my opinion, was poor management decisions and lack of care, or simply rotten luck.

For me, the car is an abysmal failure for my tastes. However, for others it is perfect. And I would far rather people that like that type of car, buy a Fisker rather than some other exotic as it will use far less gasoline than other exotics.

I am sorry about the Fisker failures, but not surprised.
Likewise, I feel a lot of empathy for the owners as I know what it is like to be this passionate about a car, and couldn't imagine how difficult it would be to be going through this.

 

[chimpanzee]

Where do you see ANY comparison? They both have 4 tires?

I'm sorry Fisker is failing. I'm sorry Fisker and Tesla haven't exactly gotten along. I think it's time to face the fact that you bought the wrong car. It doesn't make you dumb, or a bad person. Just one bad decision in a lifetime of decisions. Seems as if when you all get to Santana Row on Saturday (if that ever happens for whatever undefined reason) you should all just go in and make a reservation for a Model S.

Your hearts in the right place, you just bought the wrong car.

Edit: As far as the negative rep points for saying this; your credibility is limited since you didn't have the courage to identify yourself. However, I don't see how suggesting that someone move on with their life in a positive direction after making a bad decision is ever counterproductive.

"Success is 90% FAILURE"
-- Sochiro Honda

Good article by Bill Gross (Idealab) about business lessons:

http://www.businessinsider.com/bill-gross-lessons-2011-12?op=1

[ the guy DK who leaked the GM EV1 xxx (via GM insider) went to Caltech with Bill Gross. DK & I are friends from amateur-astronomy (note that Tesla co-founder Mark Tarpenning is also amateur-astronomer), who showed up at my house (2 blocks from Caltech) with GM EV1 & gave me a ride. This was way-back-when, I still remember being STUNNED at this "jewel in the test tube". Why is it so DIFFICULT to get this "winning Technology" into the mass-market?? See "Who Killed the Electric Car", it's all there.. BTW, DK was in the film (part of the crowd behind the fence, witnessing the EV1 confiscation ]

Steve Jobs 2.0 was an exercise in Vision, Leadership, Execution, which led to the STUNNING Apple 2.0 recovery ("Adapting to Change").. Apple was 6 months from Bankruptcy, but

1) leadership issues were handled
2 BoDs fired

2) major cost-cutting
~500 down to 12 (by Gil Amelio), then to ~6 (by Jobs)

3) started iMac innvoation
later led to the STUNNING iPod, iPhone, iPad ground-breaking products

4) did a deal with the "devil" (Bill Gates/Microsoft)

Apple was profitable in ONE YEAR!!

"It starts from the Top"

Leadership is paramount. Steve Jobs pulled a

"Snatching Victory from Hands of Defeat"

It looks as if FA had a "cancer in the clubhouse" -- Bad Management


STEM (Science Technology Engineering Mathematics) based company becoming #1 market-capitalized company, exceeding Exxon Mobil ("old oil")

Apple builds computers, where new Alternative Fuel cars build "drive by wire" machines (heavy computer integration) with an added Alternative Energy tech.

Apple transformed itself from a computer company into a MASS-MARKET entertainment company (Apple Computer => Apple). It builds hardware, & designs software (to drive hardware sales)

These new vehicle startups are all "hardware companies", who need to drive sales via XXX. The recent buggy Model S release (especially software) is worrisome..


It would behoove EVERY vehicle-startup to learn the "lessons of History", especially recent failures

 

[Al Sherman]

Al, you are mixing your opinion with concrete statements.
It is presumptuous to say "the Fisker is the wrong car". It is not presumptuous to say 'for me, the Fisker is the wrong car'.
Fisker built a statement, and many people absolutely love the styling of the car. I do not, and many others do not, but many do.
Fisker's biggest problem, in my opinion, was poor management decisions and lack of care, or simply rotten luck.

For me, the car is an abysmal failure for my tastes. However, for others it is perfect. And I would far rather people that like that type of car, buy a Fisker rather than some other exotic as it will use far less gasoline than other exotics.

I am sorry about the Fisker failures, but not surprised.
Likewise, I feel a lot of empathy for the owners as I know what it is like to be this passionate about a car, and couldn't imagine how difficult it would be to be going through this.

K. I'll let it go. I think "presumptuous" is the wrong word but no need to argue over semantics.

I actually think the Karma is a great looking car. Always have. That's always been about it for me. I've always felt that the car wouldn't sell in any great numbers and it didn't. I guess by wrong car I meant "in general." When you have the "right" product people generally line up to buy it. This didn't happen and I don't think it would have regardless of management.

I also still don't see ANY similarity in the Roadster and the Karma other than the proof of concept for a start up car company thing.

No question on the empathy. I would feel very badly if Tesla were in a similar situation. If that ever happens, I hope someone will show me some "tough love" and enable me to move on to whatever is next.

Not to belabor the point or be "presumptuous" but I STILL think if you give negative rep points (which incidentally I have NEVER done) you should have the courage of your convictions and sign your name, or you lose credibility. :smile:

 

[Zythryn]

K. I'll let it go. I think "presumptuous" is the wrong word but no need to argue over semantics.

I actually think the Karma is a great looking car. Always have. That's always been about it for me. I've always felt that the car wouldn't sell in any great numbers and it didn't. I guess by wrong car I meant "in general." When you have the "right" product people generally line up to buy it. This didn't happen and I don't think it would have regardless of management.

I also still don't see ANY similarity in the Roadster and the Karma other than the proof of concept for a start up car company thing.

No question on the empathy. I would feel very badly if Tesla were in a similar situation. If that ever happens, I hope someone will show me some "tough love" and enable me to move on to whatever is next.

Not to belabor the point or be "presumptuous" but I STILL think if you give negative rep points (which incidentally I have NEVER done) you should have the courage of your convictions and sign your name, or you lose credibility. :smile:

Still don't think you can say it is wrong, in general, as it sold cars faster than the Roadster did, for as long as they were selling.
As for your last, point, I think if someone is to give negative rep, they should definitely say why. And, yes, a name would be good as well.

 

[dsm363]

How many cars did Fisker end up selling?

 

[SoCalGuy]

How many cars did Fisker end up selling?

Produced just over 2,000 cars, 338 lost to Sandy, about 100 or so in dealer inventory currently, do about 1,500-1,600 or so.

 

[Zythryn]

How many cars did Fisker end up selling?

They "delivered" about 2000 cars from November 2011 to October 2012. However, from what I have read, they include deliveries to dealers. Estimates I have heard have been about 1500 in customer's hands.

It took Tesla about 2 years to deliver 1400.

Please note, I am not suggesting anything with this data other than the consumer interest was not lacking for the Karma any more than it was for the Roadster.

I don't believe the failure of Fisker has anything to due with lack of interest, but almost solely with mismanagement and poor planning/bad luck.

 

[vfx]

They "delivered" about 2000 cars from November 2011 to October 2012. However, from what I have read, they include deliveries to dealers. Estimates I have heard have been about 1500 in customer's hands.

It took Tesla about 2 years to deliver 1400.....

Perhaps the Fisker rode on the coatatils of Tesla. That is, a new car company's successes (Roadster) made it easier (more comfortable?) for buyers to take a risk on another new car on the market.

 

[Stoneymonster]

Perhaps the Fisker rode on the coatatils of Tesla. That is, a new car company's successes (Roadster) made it easier (more comfortable?) for buyers to take a risk on another new car on the market.

Also, wasn't the roadster put of production by then? There was a window where the Fisker was the only game in town for a sporty EV like thing.

 

[ckessel]

Please note, I am not suggesting anything with this data other than the consumer interest was not lacking for the Karma any more than it was for the Roadster.

FWIW, I'm not sure you can compare market demand on an all-electric 2-seater roadster with a 4-door EREV "sedan". The market for $100k+ 2-seater roadsters isn't exactly large even among established ICE vendors.

 

[PRJIM]

Fisker is what Tesla would have been if Eberhard had not gotten axe.

 

[vfx]

Fisker is what Tesla would have been if Eberhard had not gotten axe.

Or not if all sorts of things had not been added to the car on his watch.

 

[SoCalGuy]

Perhaps the Fisker rode on the coatatils of Tesla. That is, a new car company's successes (Roadster) made it easier (more comfortable?) for buyers to take a risk on another new car on the market.

As I've said before, many Karma buyers were lured in by the car's looks rather than its eco creds. This is why I think the Karma played (or perhaps could have played) a big role in luring in luxury car buyers who wouldn't have previously considered an eco-car for its green cred. Many Karma owners previously (and some currently) own Maserati/Jag/Mercedes/Aston Martin - not really the Chevy Volt/Toyota Prius crowd.

Fisker suffered from coming to market too soon and in so doing, had a series of VERY public failures and missteps. The Karma of today is a MUCH better product than it was when I first got mine in January 2012. Had the company bunkered down and pushed deliveries to the summer, the outcome quite possibly could have been much different. In my opinion, the rush to market was driven by the milestones dictated in the DOE loan agreement - to think that only $200M out of $1.4B raised could have brought down the company is really sobering - Henrik should have just paid off the DOE in the end of 2011 and replaced it with private cash so it could take its time to refine the Karma. Hindsight is 20/20 though, and most could not have predicted the political repercussions (or at least their severity).