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Fisker Karma

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I don't get it. Why did the DOE 'recoup' 21 Million on the 11th?
Would that not be qualified as the portion due later in the month, as they were not yet delinquent, were they?

The Reuters report talks about Fisker trying to avoid breaching covenants on the loan. We don't know what the details of the covenants on this loan, but they are typically intended to ensure that the borrower demonstrates capability to repay the loan in the future, and breach often gives the lender the right to demand immediate repayment of the entire loan.

So in this case they might have been able to scrape together the next payment, but if they were in breach of the covenants that would not be enough.
 
I really can't see how he would care. That is trivial nonsense compared to losing your business.

trivial nonsense?? i dunno bout that. the government can do some nasty things. if they find he was dishonest about the company's future in order to secure a loan who knows what they'll do. i bet he'll be there w a team of lawyers. you dont want to be in trouble w the government. they have way too much power.
 
trivial nonsense?? i dunno bout that. the government can do some nasty things. if they find he was dishonest about the company's future in order to secure a loan who knows what they'll do. i bet he'll be there w a team of lawyers. you dont want to be in trouble w the government. they have way too much power.

Sure, but all he has to do is say, "We made an honest effort of it, but we screwed up, got unlucky, and it failed." They won't be able to prove otherwise. This about slamming the Obama administration, not Fisker.
 
This is about getting on TV. I hate these hearings. I don't care which poor sap is in the chair. It's just a chance for Senators and Congressmen to show how "tough" they are on issues that "Americans care about".

Both parties play this game.

The good news for Fisker is that the lawmakers never actually do anything. So they'll be fine. Just need to sit through an hour or so of getting scolded.
 
well, not to change the subject too much to a political debate but i think the obama administration deserves a huge slap in the face for lending fisker money. lending $ for a fancy chevy volt that few people can afford was pretty stupid.

Many would say the loan to Tesla was foolish as well.
In addition, the bulk of that loan was for development, and manufacturing of the 2nd gen Atlantic.
I think the original program (which was created during the Bush administration) is a wonderful program with great goals.
The creators of the ATMV program knew much of these loans were going to small start ups, or cutting edge tech that had a high chance of failure. As such, they set aside a fund of 7.5 Billion to cover losses.
 
I have to politely disagree. Here's a quick snapshot of the issues the car of early 2012 faced (some of what you've mentioned) and what's been done since:
- Loud engine noise - I recall the roadshow cars sounded like a cross between a vacuum cleaner and lawn mower and was VERY intrusive at hard acceleration - Muffler 2.0 just about fixed most of the problem by Q2 2012 and a new CIU update in Q3 or thereabouts also reduced noise (by reducing ICE output and borrowing more instant power from the battery - the peak ICE demand is limited to 170hp, which is down significantly from before and much lower than the rated 240hp for the Ecotec 4banger). The engine is still louder at hard accel than say a Lexus or even a BMW, but at least now its in the same general noise band

- Driving speedo screen blackout - Problem fixed in 510 - no longer any issues with the screen resetting

- Command Center sluggishness - Dramatic improvement in the last three software updates; still not iPad quick (about 0.5s delay on initial startup), but once screens are loaded, response is instant (e.g. once radio page is loaded, you get instant haptic feedback as you hit the buttons to change stations etc)

- HV battery failure - This was really more an A123 issue, but most of the early guys like Consumer Reports got replacement batteries that have performed well so far

- Body panel gaps/alignment - Later production Karmas no longer had trunk overbite or hood alignment issues; those cars like mine that had a few of those issues were improved by dealers

- Low end chugging/creep - I think it was the 620 or 624 update that addressed creep chugging issues and how the RDM operated at low speeds; creep is now smooth and low end acceleration is also quieter and "feels" faster in both Stealth and Sport

- Wind noise/rattle from windows - The infamous 'plastic bag' noise at speeds above 60mph is now totally gone - Fisker had a bulletin out the end of last year with a part that fixed that and completely eliminated the noise

- Stranded/no start - Have never had this issue, but those that I know who have report no such issues anymore

- Bluetooth connectivity - Bluetooth now works all the time, though with certain phones, there is still a crackling; rumor was the March update had a new codec for the iphone to fix that but now we may never know!

- Backup camera not functioning - Fixed in 620 - works all the time with no black screen

- Frozen Command Center - Fixed completely in 510. Never had this happen to me, but others have reported this and now it appears to be fixed

- Sluggish acceleration - Fisker did some slight of hand here with acceleration, pulling more power from battery at initial acceleration than it did in the early cars to reduce noise; that said, the car is still comparatively slow to other $100K cars. However, we all knew the stats going into our purchase - they didn't change! Published stats 0-60 in 6.3s in Sport, 7.9s in Stealth. Various car mags have actually reported better numbers (I think MT or Automob mag had 0-60 in 5.9s and 7.5s respectively).

- Check engine light - I've yet to see this come on after I've been on 510.

- Loud charging fans/delayed charging - Also fixed in 510. No longer need to wait for fans to turn off to charge - just plug and go; works like a charm. Also fans are better modulated now so they don't stay on as long or turn as loudly as before

- Fires (haha, sorry, had to include) - fuse and fans replaced!

As for your other complaints/issues:
- electric range - I know people have issues with this - haven't gotten 50 miles on a charge, but I regularly get 39-43 miles per charge depending on how fast I drive and the topography; this is actually a pleasant surprising considering the EPA rated it at only 33 miles (imagine your ICE car with an MPG of 33mpg - ICEs almost NEVER get that high in real life; ditto on the Model S - the Karma actually gets much much higher than the EPA rating in the real world)

- car weight - again, this was known before the first customer cars were delivered; weight matters less in absolute terms - the Karma still handles phenomenally as a GT

- solar roof - agree - mostly decorative, but definitely a conversation starter

- interior space - again, not muched changed from the concept car in 2009 to the production car - a known commodity going into a purchase. I personally haven't had any problems with it - a couple of my 6' friends are fine sitting in the back for short trips; I've always liked the 'cockpit' feel of the four seat pods; you really didn't expect this to be an aftermarket upgrade/change did you?

- trunk space - again, a known commodity before delivery of the cars; you didn't expect Fisker to have an aftermarket change to this either did you?

- long wheel base - again, nothing here is a surprise - the long wheel base is what gives the Karma part of its great looks and handling

Given the car that was delivered in early 2012 and what I have now, the Karma is much improved. Had they delivered today's car last year, the story for the Karma and FA would be quite different.

I think Matthew49 is right in his observation that structural flaws should not be discarded because the buyer could or should have know about them. I plunked down the money for a reservation years before and after delay upon delay upon delay you're finally just happy to get the car at all. Ofcourse I had a test drive, but you can't test everything and the problems that I did notice, like a very loud engine in Sport Mode, would all be fixed in the final production car, they assured me. Well, they weren't.

The Ecotec-engine is the thing that kept bothering me most. It sounds awfull and is too loud. You say they managed to get the sound down 'to the same general noise band of Lexus or even a BMW', but that doesn't mean much. A screaming kid can be in the same noise band as a soprano, it doesn't mean you get the same sound sensation.

Fisker fixed quite some things, but many things were simply not fixable because they were caused by structural design decisions, which turned into flaws in real life. Like not being able to take tight turns due to the long wheel base (not something you immediately notice during a 10 minute test drive).

The green credentials, which were very important to me, were also pretty disappointing. I reached 30-35 miles instead of 50 miles at normal highway speeds. In winter even less. And the 20 mpg in Sport Mode is everything but ecochic. I know that for others the green element didn't count as much as the looks. I know that it didn't for you, as you drove at least the first 1500 miles without ever recharging. So I guess we simply had different expectations of the car. For me, looking back, the negatives determined my experience with the Karma. With you its the positives. I'm glad for you that you like the car and I hope that despite of the uncertainty surrounding the future of Fisker you can still drive it for years to come (hopefully in Stealth Mode :tongue:)
 
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well, not to change the subject too much to a political debate but i think the obama administration deserves a huge slap in the face for lending fisker money. lending $ for a fancy chevy volt that few people can afford was pretty stupid.

Please don't make this into a political argument. That's the path to "snippiness" (the thread where we exile nasty arguments).

I also don't agree that the Chevy Volt was a bad idea. It's not nearly as expensive as a Tesla, and like the Tesla the price will come down over time. Electric vehicle technology has a great potential to reduce dependence on foreign oil, etc.

Unfortunately the Fisker Karma was not well executed, and really wasn't compelling. If someone offered me a choice of a free Fisker Karma or a free Chevy Volt, I'd take the Volt. Or I'd take the Fisker, sell it, buy two Volts, and give one to my Mom.
 
I really can't see how he would care. That is trivial nonsense compared to losing your business.

Jail Time is not trivial nonsense. A 100 million of that loan was used to complete the Karma. Which the Loan was NEVER supposed to be used for the Karma. It was supposed to be used for the development of the Atlantic. Misappropriation of gov't funds can result in fines and/or jail time. Second Fisker lied on gov't documents and affidavits when applying for the DOE that the Karma R&D was already 100% complete. That lie itself can be enough for jail time and fines for the CEO and the entire board of Fisker (maybe R&D head as well). All it takes is one or two senators with a chip on their shoulders, with an agenda and wanting to make an example out of Henrik and things can go so bad for Henrik at the drop of a pen. Of course Henrik can weasel out of it... but if the Senators press hard enough they can make the Karma completion at the time of application of the DOE loan stick.
 
Jail Time is not trivial nonsense. A 100 million of that loan was used to complete the Karma. Which the Loan was NEVER supposed to be used for the Karma. It was supposed to be used for the development of the Atlantic. Misappropriation of gov't funds can result in fines and/or jail time. Second Fisker lied on gov't documents and affidavits when applying for the DOE that the Karma R&D was already 100% complete. That lie itself can be enough for jail time and fines for the CEO and the entire board of Fisker (maybe R&D head as well). All it takes is one or two senators with a chip on their shoulders, with an agenda and wanting to make an example out of Henrik and things can go so bad for Henrik at the drop of a pen. Of course Henrik can weasel out of it... but if the Senators press hard enough they can make the Karma completion at the time of application of the DOE loan stick.

I think this is wrong information. According to the DOE agreement with Fisker located here:

http://www.lgprogram.energy.gov/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/FiskerConditionalCom.pdf

Section 9 Shows that the Maximum Karma Loan amount is $169,300,000.
 
I think this is wrong information. According to the DOE agreement with Fisker located here:

http://www.lgprogram.energy.gov/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/FiskerConditionalCom.pdf

Section 9 Shows that the Maximum Karma Loan amount is $169,300,000.

Henrik did state the the Karma as complete (if nor near complete) before the DOE Loan. If you check out page 16 section 9 i), that Fisker can draw on up to 80% of the 169,300,000 for Eligible engineering costs. If the car is complete or near completion why would it need 100 million more dollars to complete? That sounds like fraud. The Applicable historical costs would be engineering for the tooling and maybe factory. If Fisker still owed money on the R&D side then that would be considered indebtedness.

So I should restate that based on Henrik's own press releases and his own words, that the loan SHOULD NOT have been used for the Karma.

Fisker used money from that loan where it wasn't appropriate to do so and wasn't prudent in its stewardship of that loan. Just wait and watch, this is going to be a major part of the hearing.
 
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Dollars are fungible; that sort of thing could be very hard to prove. You'd probably need a forensic audit.

I'm not saying Fisker shouldn't be careful with his answers... I'm just saying that this is more likely to be motivated by politics than wasted money. If he does a mea culpa then he'll probably come out of it with nothing but a tongue lashing.
 
Dollars are fungible; that sort of thing could be very hard to prove. You'd probably need a forensic audit.

I'm not saying Fisker shouldn't be careful with his answers... I'm just saying that this is more likely to be motivated by politics than wasted money. If he does a mea culpa then he'll probably come out of it with nothing but a tongue lashing.

I agree Dollars are Fungible, but all it takes is a pissed of Senator, a Senator trying to make a name for him/herself, or a senator with another agenda (personal vindetta etc) to propose a forensic audit and that could spell a world of trouble. I'm not saying it is going to happen, but it's a distinct possibility that shouldn't be ignored.

Look at it this way. The US is doing furloughs because of the sequester, what senator wouldn't look like a champion for taking down someone/company that "stole" tax payer money? That jumps right out at me as an agenda for a senator to have.