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For AWD owners wanting a P3D-

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Tesla's website currently lists Performance as 3.2 and LR AWD as 4.4 - so basically the same differnce as before.

Nope.

Originally it was 4.5 and 3.5 when the cars were first released.

Then Tesla decided to start lying and began posting a 0-60 time using a different test for the P only.

So overnight it went down to 3.2 without the car actually getting any faster.

The AWD at the time would've been around 4.2 if they'd used the same method to measure it.


Then the 5% power update came out- the P now does about 3.1 using the magazine-method (1 foot rollout) of testing... and the AWD does 4.0 using the same test.

But Tesla continues to be dishonest and only use that method for the P, and uses one that produces slower numbers for the non-P.

They do the same dishonest non-sense with the S and X too.
 
LR AWD as 4.4 - so basically the same differnce as before.

As detailed, this website number includes rollout. There are multiple reports of people in AWD getting ~4.0 seconds excluding rollout (4.3+ or so with rollout time included).

Certainly helps encourage those P3D sales!

0.9 seconds of course is significant. For $2k, which is (was?) available, it's arguably crazy not to do it - Track Mode, etc., helps make your car more attractive for resale, probably.
 
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Nope.

Originally it was 4.5 and 3.5 when the cars were first released.

Then Tesla decided to start lying and began posting a 0-60 time using a different test for the P only.

So overnight it went down to 3.2 without the car actually getting any faster.

The AWD at the time would've been around 4.2 if they'd used the same method to measure it.


Then the 5% power update came out- the P now does about 3.1 using the magazine-method (1 foot rollout) of testing... and the AWD does 4.0 using the same test.

But Tesla continues to be dishonest and only use that method for the P, and uses one that produces slower numbers for the non-P.

They do the same dishonest non-sense with the S and X too.

Interesting - I did not know about the different tests. Serious question, are you assuming the test done the same way with the AWD would give the same .3 second boost with the different test they started using for the P or is that a known and tested fact?

Funny how we're discussing fractions of seconds but when the whole thing is 3-4 seconds these fractions matter!

Also, I'd be interested to learn more about the magazine-method that gives a 4 second 0-60. Can you provide anymore info on this? Thanks for the info btw!
 
Serious question, are you assuming the test done the same way with the AWD would give the same .3 second boost with the different test they started using for the P or is that a known and tested fact?

Interestingly, 1-foot rollout time is always about 0.3 seconds. It's relatively insensitive to the acceleration capability of the vehicle (inversely proportional to square root of acceleration). It's a little complicated by the slow onset of acceleration in both vehicles (AWD & P3D both ramp torque relatively "slowly" over 0.1 to 0.2 seconds or something - very hard to instrument and "see" but it definitely isn't as much of a jerk as the P100DL), but that actually probably serves to make the times even closer to the same when comparing the two. Of course it's not going to be IDENTICAL in each vehicle - the P3D rollout time is presumably slightly lower. But not enough to really matter for this discussion.

If you search for 0-60 times for AWD here, you'll see tons of instrumented runs demonstrating the ~4.0 second runs.

Just to be clear, without modifications or special conditions (unless you weigh 80-90 pounds!), you're not going to get below 3.1 seconds in the P3D. It's slightly closer to 3.2 than 3.1. Lots of variables of course. Maybe if everything lined up just so you could approach the 3.1.
 
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Yeah, you'd think if there was some "it's an AWD but we can make it a P3D-" code existed that somehow knowledge of that secret would have leaked out, especially considering how many low paid service employees Tesla wipes its ass with on a quarterly basis.

Actually that software is already "out there" (my neighbour owns a Model 3 with that software, so I have seen it myself). It was installed in March/April on a few of the european standard AWD's (known as "20% upgrade") some time after delivery as compensation for messing up orders. This does not change the car to a "performance" in the menu (like P3D- with track mode), but gives the same basic performance (20% is roughly the hp difference for AWD and P).
I assume this is beta software that will be available later for all AWD's (why else would they have a special non-P3D- "branch" for this - it would have been easier for them to give the car the P3D- firmware instead).
 
Interesting - I did not know about the different tests. Serious question, are you assuming the test done the same way with the AWD would give the same .3 second boost with the different test they started using for the P or is that a known and tested fact?

Known, and tested, fact.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tes...el-3-long-range-dual-motor-first-test-review/

Motortrend said:
This 4,062-pound Model 3 Long Range Dual Motor hit 60 mph in just 4.0 seconds and passed the quarter-mile finish line in 12.5 seconds at 113.1 mph

Later they mention-

Motortrend said:
The highest-performing Model 3s we've tested have been, naturally, Dual Motor Performance models with 450 horsepower and 471 lb-ft. The quickest of them hit 60 mph in 3.1 seconds and passed the quarter-mile finish line in 11.7 seconds at 115.1 mph

So 3.1 and 4.0 for P vs AWD when you actually test them the same way, post 5% update.




In
Also, I'd be interested to learn more about the magazine-method that gives a 4 second 0-60. Can you provide anymore info on this? Thanks for the info btw!


The Drag Racing Technicality that Got the Tesla Model S P100D to 60 in 2.28 Seconds

Goes into some detail about it... Most everyone (car mags, car companies, etc) use the same method to measure and advertise 0-60 for all their cars across their lines.

Tesla does not. They intentionally use the slower method for the advertised times on non-P cars.

They've always done this on the S/X.

They initially did NOT do it on the 3 (hence the 4.5 and 3.5 at official launch) which gave us hope they were realizing how dishonest they'd been and were turning over a new leaf.

Then a few months later they switched to the shady two-different-methods on the 3 and have stuck with it ever since.
 
Yes, it's likely that most AWD are "good enough" for Performance. But obviously not all. And "good enough" is fungible. All AWD's could be flashed to Performance and they would all work. At least for a time. But some would burn out. Fail. Tesla's goal is zero failures. So they have standards. It has to do with how much heat the parts generate when switching high levels of current. The amount of current going through those little teeny power transistors is impressive, even in the AWD model.

Again, supposition is not fact. You don't know that those parts are going to fail sooner, that is just your assumption.
 
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I'm loathe to further inflame things, because there is no way to know some of this for sure, but with modern logistics and testing in the silicon world, it's very achievable to take and as part of the manufacturing process run a series of tests on the silicon and motors themselves right at the end of the component manufacturing line. In a case like this you would take a motor right off the line at manufacturing, place it into a test harness of some sort, and measure how much power it drew to hit a certain performance characteristic, or what it output at a set of specific input power. It would be part of a fairly standard quality control program because obviously you want to know that motor is going to turn before you build it into a car. It's pretty typical to have significant deviations from your target spec. It wouldn't be that your motor couldn't hit the same rpm or whatever, it would be that it took a higher power draw to do so, especially at the extremes. So a performance motor might be one that can deliver the output needed to accelerate at the performance speed at the max output of the battery pack, a lower binned motor might need 5-10% more power to deliver the same output. That motor is perfectly good for use in a car without re-work as long as you meet the alternate performance target. Sometimes it's not even performance in this kind of mindset, but something more removed like what amount of heat is generated by this part under these conditions, and you can see non-trivial differences in part to part.

Part numbers are a logistical aid, so that when you get something off the big shelf in the back you know you are getting the right thing, but every motor almost certainly has a globally unique identifier like a serial number or something. Even if you weren't outright binning, you would track the results of all those tests, including the performance/capacity/etc. tests back to this serial number in a manufacturing system. Even as disorganized as Tesla sometimes seems to be it would shock me if they didn't know the serial number, and the measured results of those tests for every motor they have shipped, and be able to match that serial number to a VIN without any trouble at all. Every VIN is probably assigned all the parts it needs by part number and part serial number early on in the process on paper or in the manufacturing system at some point in the process. It wouldn't be that difficult to match up the higher performing motors with a specific vehicle so when it's time attach the motor(s) it's not just go pick one up out of the generic parts bin, it's actually lined up waiting for robot or person in the same order of the cars being manufactured on the line.

All that said, I suspect that Tesla designed a this motor as best they could. These things are typically designed with a model of the yielded parts over hundreds and thousands of parts. A responsible team would model worst case yields, best case yields, etc. Those models and the part design is optimized to deliver the most parts to spec possible, because a fully out of spec part is usually trash. By setting two different levels of usable performance your margin for the natural variation in parts is greatly increased. Engineers always hope to get as many parts as possible that test at the highest spec, but when you are talking about millions and billions of dollars people tend to be less tolerant of 'hope' and more interested in 'correct'. What's going on with the AWD and P models looks a lot like a case where Tesla designed an excellent motor, set a Performance spec, and a lower AWD spec so that they could have a high degree of confidence that virtually every motor that came off the line was sellable, no motors going into the trash/scrap/re-work piles. From what we have seen though, it's clear that the 'worst case' motor yields didn't come to pass, plenty of motors met the Performance spec. We know this because there wasn't a capacity constraint on the performance models, and in fact Tesla as selling and delivering them first. If they had thought that 75% of the motors would meet the performance spec, but in the end only 50% had, they would have pushed the price of the performance model up, or it would have been slower to deliver while motors became the bottle neck. Instead what seems likely is that more motors met the Performance spec than planned (which if true should be a big bonus for the motor design and manufacturing guys) and of course you don't throw those motors away, or store them for a day when you are magically going to sell more P models, you use them, in this case in the AWD. This doesn't mean that 100% of the motors met that spec, so you would still expect to have some percentage of AWD vehicles that wouldn't meet the P spec, say x RPM at Y power.

Over the course of a year you would refine your design, and your tests such that a new part number might emerge, primarily because doing so saves you money. Time in a test harness is measured in price per second. So if you can re-engineer to save $5 worth of time there over 500,000 motors that's real money.

Anyway... short of Tesla manufacturing or design really telling us, this is all speculation, but I wouldn't put all that much faith in the part number arguments, it just isn't that difficult these days to track these things at a much finer grain. I'd be stunned if there wasn't somewhere on every significant part in the car from the motor to the pack a bar code or some similar scannable thing that links up to a highly detailed database with a few orders of magnitude more information about that specific part than we ever see. This is how Tesla can do a recall or service advisory on specific cars, it's not just cars manufactured between the 5th and 20th, it's cars with with battery pack serial numbers between 3-031-931-900 & 3-031-932-467 which happened to be manufactured between the 5th and the 20th.
 
Actually that software is already "out there" (my neighbour owns a Model 3 with that software, so I have seen it myself). It was installed in March/April on a few of the european standard AWD's (known as "20% upgrade") some time after delivery as compensation for messing up orders. This does not change the car to a "performance" in the menu (like P3D- with track mode), but gives the same basic performance (20% is roughly the hp difference for AWD and P).
I assume this is beta software that will be available later for all AWD's (why else would they have a special non-P3D- "branch" for this - it would have been easier for them to give the car the P3D- firmware instead).

I have never heard of this before, this is good news.
 
Actually that software is already "out there" (my neighbour owns a Model 3 with that software, so I have seen it myself). It was installed in March/April on a few of the european standard AWD's (known as "20% upgrade") some time after delivery as compensation for messing up orders. This does not change the car to a "performance" in the menu (like P3D- with track mode), but gives the same basic performance (20% is roughly the hp difference for AWD and P).
I assume this is beta software that will be available later for all AWD's (why else would they have a special non-P3D- "branch" for this - it would have been easier for them to give the car the P3D- firmware instead).

Not sure why they have this software when they installed P software on standard AWD before. Co-worker ordered P but got an AWD so SC had to install the P software. Also have Co-worker that ordered an AWD but came with P software. Seems like software and AWD models 3 are interchangeable.

I wasn’t so lucky with my AWD but my car feels like a P. Maybe I have that 20% software. What does it look it and how do you know for sure?
 
Not sure why they have this software when they installed P software on standard AWD before. Co-worker ordered P but got an AWD so SC had to install the P software. Also have Co-worker that ordered an AWD but came with P software. Seems like software and AWD models 3 are interchangeable.

I wasn’t so lucky with my AWD but my car feels like a P. Maybe I have that 20% software. What does it look it and how do you know for sure?
Pay for a dyno.
 
Why can’t they? Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose!:)

Technically, they could do that. But it's one thing to tell (for example) that Model S owners of cars built after a certain date are eligible for a certain update (while owners of older Model S's are not eligible), it's a completely different thing to tell purchasers of a Model 3 built on the same date and sold for the same price have different capabilities. Yes, they could do it but it would not make good business sense.

Heck, people get inflamed when they hear the cars price has changed over time, they would go ballistic if they found out they couldn't upgrade while their neighbor who bought exactly the same thing, on the same day, for the same price could! That's why they are simply not going to go there.
 
Technically, they could do that. But it's one thing to tell (for example) that Model S owners of cars built after a certain date are eligible for a certain update (while owners of older Model S's are not eligible), it's a completely different thing to tell purchasers of a Model 3 built on the same date and sold for the same price have different capabilities.


But 100% of actual evidence says that's not how that works.

Everyone with a 980 DU would be eligible, since they literally have the same HW as the P version


Anybody who bought after they switched AWDs over to the 990 would POSSIBLY not be (and even that is speculation since it's unclear exactly what's different in the 990)

Yes, they could do it but it would not make good business sense.

Free money for the company, nearly all profit, doesn't make good business sense?

Older owners would be thrilled to throw nearly 100% profit cash at Tesla.

Newer buyers would be aware this upgrade option is no longer is available to "new" 990 AWD builds, so they'd ALSO have motivation to give Tesla more money by paying 2k more for a P on a new purchase up front.

That's win-win for Tesla.
 
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Free money for the company, nearly all profit, doesn't make good business sense?

Older owners would be thrilled to throw nearly 100% profit cash at Tesla.

Newer buyers would be aware this upgrade option is no longer is available to "new" 990 AWD builds, so they'd ALSO have motivation to give Tesla more money by paying 2k more for a P on a new purchase up front.

That's win-win for Tesla.

It's short term win for Tesla (immediate cash) but long term wise, it's a really bad business move:

1.) Set precedence for future buyers (i.e. Model Y) that upgrades maybe possible, so anyone on the fence of buying the performance model would have one more reason just to buy the AWD version.

2.) You will piss off a lot of your current customers (and potential future re-buyers)

3.) You'll just get a lot current "990" owners whining about why they can't get their cars unlocked too.

I can see this happening if Tesla's sales were really dropping off a cliff and they were looking for quick immediate cash. As it stands now, demand is still very strong so it's very unlikely going to happen in the near future.
 
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It's short term win for Tesla (immediate cash) but long term wise, it's a really bad business move:

1.) Set precedence for future buyers (i.e. Model Y) that upgrades maybe possible

Just the opposite- makes it clear they're not possible on future purchases, only older ones before they differentiated hardware.



2.) You will piss off a lot of your current customers (and potential future re-buyers)

...how? all the 980 owners would either be neutral or happy. Future buyers would be better informed on if the 2k to upgrade to P is worth it pre-purchase since it's the only way to get it.


3.) You'll just get a lot current "990" owners whining about why they can't get their cars unlocked too.

You got some 75 owners doing the same when they unlocked some, but not all, of those. Nobody ended up really caring though.

Ditto when P85 upgrades were different based on purchase date too.



As it stands now, demand is still very strong so it's very unlikely going to happen in the near future.

That's kind of the point.

They're selling cars as fast as they can make them and still not turning a profit.

Offering an AWD->P upgrade delivers almost 100% pure profit income without needing to build additional cars they can't actually build