For AWD owners wanting a P3D-

[focher]

If you put the same tires and rims on an AWD, a 3P "Stealth", and a 3P then drive them each the same way on the same route, I'd be willing to bet you get exactly the same range.

 

[Candleflame]

Dave, who knows what software tweeks Tesla may still offer.
The P3D- was offered when orders opened in Australia in late June - but not the LR AWD which I wanted and I ordered the P3D-. Early July the configurator deleted the P3D- and added the LR AWD at the same price. My understanding is the only difference is the software.
I changed my order for the LR AWD (I know, some on this forum will think I was raving mad) so what was the trade-off for me. Range increased from 560 km to 620 km NEDC, acceleration dropped from 3.4 sec 0-100 km/h to 4.6 sec, top speed fell from 261 km/h to 233 km/h, all done in software ... and my annual insurance costs fell. Physically the car is identical - same trim level, same wheels, tyres and brakes, same build, same VIN description.
The only difference between the two configurations was marketing and a software tweek; in the Australian case even the price was identical.
Power, range and rear/front motor balance were adjusted between the two cars through software. As I intend to do quite a bit of long distance touring and won't be doing any track work the choice was easy. My personal top speed will be unchanged between cars - except on the track they are totally unattainable. Acceleration will remain brilliant and will still dazzle all my friends - only I will know that it could have been even faster if I wanted a different trade off.
But long distance travel - the reason I wanted AWD - will be easier with nearly 11% more range.

ehm I think you have been mislead. The P3D- has the same range as the AWD. There is no difference, even if Tesla changes its adverising model for the range. If you want the 11% more range you need to get the RWD. That one has around 8-10% more range that the AWD/P-.

Also, the P3D- always had a topspeed of 233kmh. What you are thinking about is the P3D+ where you could upgrade to the more inefficient 20" wheels which is where the rangeloss comes from.

 

[engle]

I hope my post will be definitive so you folks can stop wasting time on this thread. I was able to arrange a tour of Gigafactory 1 ("Giga") in Sparks, NV a few weeks ago for my family and I. The tour was almost 2 hours because I asked a ton of questions. First, we took a ride in a minibus around the exterior, then our group of 8 were treated to a walking tour that covered the TSLA area. Panasonic does not allow outsiders to view their battery factory-within-a-factory so I did not see that.

I signed an NDA on an iPad I didn't read because I've read the one at Tesla Fremont Factory and figured it was the same. Therefore, I cannot provide any details about anything. I believe what I am sharing is available from other sources? If not, the admins should delete my post.

1. A Model 3 Long Range Dual Motor vehicle's firmware CAN BE put in "factory mode" and set to a Performance model. That will change the power curve sent to the motors from the battery pack, providing Performance 0-60 times, increased top speed, etc.
   
   
2. However, TSLA will NEVER provide that upgrade for $$$ because the electric motors (built at Giga) for the Long Range Dual Motor Model 3's are NOT "binned" to handle the stress of Performance launches, etc. over a long period of time. "Binned" means motors are tested after they come off the production line and only those that can handle Performance specs go into the "bin" for that Model 3 variant. I saw that process but cannot describe it here.

For fellow TSLA stockholders, I think I can share that Elon has not visited Giga 1 in Sparks for quite a while now. That is bullish because Giga was a major bottleneck before, and Elon goes where the fires are to try to help put them out!

I was extremely impressed by everything I saw at Giga 1 is all I can conclude under the NDA. The tour is highly recommended. Another tour participant described touring Giga 1 as "adult Disneyland"!

 

[GateFather]

I hope my post will be definitive so you folks can stop wasting time on this thread. I was able to arrange a tour of Gigafactory 1 ("Giga") in Sparks, NV a few weeks ago for my family and I. The tour was almost 2 hours because I asked a ton of questions. First, we took a ride in a minibus around the exterior, then our group of 8 were treated to a walking tour that covered the TSLA area. Panasonic does not allow outsiders to view their battery factory-within-a-factory so I did not see that.

I signed an NDA on an iPad I didn't read because I've read the one at Tesla Fremont Factory and figured it was the same. Therefore, I cannot provide any details about anything. I believe what I am sharing is available from other sources? If not, the admins should delete my post.

1. A Model 3 Long Range Dual Motor vehicle's firmware CAN BE put in "factory mode" and set to a Performance model. That will change the power curve sent to the motors from the battery pack, providing Performance 0-60 times, increased top speed, etc.
   
   
2. However, TSLA will NEVER provide that upgrade for $$$ because the electric motors (built at Giga) for the Long Range Dual Motor Model 3's are NOT "binned" to handle the stress of Performance launches, etc. over a long period of time. "Binned" means motors are tested after they come off the production line and only those that can handle Performance specs go into the "bin" for that Model 3 variant. I saw that process but cannot describe it here.

For fellow TSLA stockholders, I think I can share that Elon has not visited Giga 1 in Sparks for quite a while now. That is bullish because Giga was a major bottleneck before, and Elon goes where the fires are to try to help put them out!

I was extremely impressed by everything I saw at Giga 1 is all I can conclude under the NDA. The tour is highly recommended. Another tour participant described touring Giga 1 as "adult Disneyland"!

View attachment 448672

Based on this report (thank you by the way), the AWD cars that were update to Performance speed are at high or higher risk of motor failure. Based on what you were told, do you agree?

 

[engle]

Based on this report (thank you by the way), the AWD cars that were update to Performance speed are at high or higher risk of motor failure. Based on what you were told, do you agree?

It is possible that TSLA Giga 1 is producing more motors that meet the "binned" performance specs then they need - although I have no evidence of this - it is pure speculation. Anyway, if I am wrong, then TSLA would be assuming more financial liability for warranty replacement motors in the future in return for extra $$$ upfront. One does wonder how often Performance owners really stress their vehicles? My first one was an early 2016 X P90D. My wife would freak out anytime I tried to launch or floor it with her in the car!

The Performance upgrade must have a huge gross margin IMHO. After all, in Fremont, they built a tent just to crank out Performance Model 3's!

 

[rontheman]

Yes - it is curious and without actual driving we can only speculate. However, Tesla does control efficiency, range and performance through software, the increase in Model 3 range about 13 Mar 2019 is an example. How the front and rear motors are utilised can affect range, efficiency and performance and I assume it is those trade-offs that distinguish the Stealth and LR models. I think it unlikely that Tesla would advertise an 11% difference in range unless it were real. It is also possible that they have simplified manufacture since 2018, have standardised front and rear motors and have further distinguished and optimised range, efficiency and performance across the 3 AWD models. I will be looking at the range carefully after I get delivery.

Unless you drive both a P and a LR on the same protocol with the same wheels, it is impossible to speculate. There are so many variables that will impact range. Driving habits, ascent/descent, temperature, use of HVAC etc. WLTP range for the LR is about 6% better than the P3 (348 miles against 329 miles). Given that aero wheels are claimed to add about 10%, and the WLTP protocol is not entirely long distance motoring, the figures seem to suggest that aero wheels are primarily, if not entirely, responsible for the difference..

I would be very surprised if the software was tweaked between P3 and P3-, other than to limit top speed. What would be the reason for doing so?

 

[john85775]

I hope my post will be definitive so you folks can stop wasting time on this thread. I was able to arrange a tour of Gigafactory 1 ("Giga") in Sparks, NV a few weeks ago for my family and I. The tour was almost 2 hours because I asked a ton of questions. First, we took a ride in a minibus around the exterior, then our group of 8 were treated to a walking tour that covered the TSLA area. Panasonic does not allow outsiders to view their battery factory-within-a-factory so I did not see that.

I signed an NDA on an iPad I didn't read because I've read the one at Tesla Fremont Factory and figured it was the same. Therefore, I cannot provide any details about anything. I believe what I am sharing is available from other sources? If not, the admins should delete my post.

1. A Model 3 Long Range Dual Motor vehicle's firmware CAN BE put in "factory mode" and set to a Performance model. That will change the power curve sent to the motors from the battery pack, providing Performance 0-60 times, increased top speed, etc.
   
   
2. However, TSLA will NEVER provide that upgrade for $$$ because the electric motors (built at Giga) for the Long Range Dual Motor Model 3's are NOT "binned" to handle the stress of Performance launches, etc. over a long period of time. "Binned" means motors are tested after they come off the production line and only those that can handle Performance specs go into the "bin" for that Model 3 variant. I saw that process but cannot describe it here.

For fellow TSLA stockholders, I think I can share that Elon has not visited Giga 1 in Sparks for quite a while now. That is bullish because Giga was a major bottleneck before, and Elon goes where the fires are to try to help put them out!

I was extremely impressed by everything I saw at Giga 1 is all I can conclude under the NDA. The tour is highly recommended. Another tour participant described touring Giga 1 as "adult Disneyland"!

View attachment 448672

Very helpful report. How does one arrange a tour?

 

[rontheman]

The wikipedia page for the Model 3 lists the rear motor output for everything except the LR AWD at 211kW (282HP). The LR AWD rear motor is rated at 188kW (252 HP). These figures are sourced from official DoE/EPA figures, who in turn would have been given them by Tesla. The front motors are all the same at 147kW (193HP). The combined outputs for the AWD LR and the P3 are 307kW (412HP) and 353kW (473HP) respectively. So the AWD LR has a lower total output than the aggregate of the individual motor outputs. Maybe different inverters account for the difference possibly plus software.

To repeat, the rear motor in the P3 is identical to that is every single motor variant of the M3, not some special unbinned, tweaked, high performance, or otherwise separate motor from everything else. It is the standard Tesla run of the mill rear motor manufactured by the hundreds of thousands. It is the LR AWD rear motor that is unique. From a "production hell" point of view, I'm not sure why Tesla would want to have 2 types of rear motor. Makes far more sense just to produce one motor type, perhaps with the AWD LR version software derated,

 

[Candleflame]

Unless you drive both a P and a LR on the same protocol with the same wheels, it is impossible to speculate. There are so many variables that will impact range. Driving habits, ascent/descent, temperature, use of HVAC etc. WLTP range for the LR is about 6% better than the P3 (348 miles against 329 miles). Given that aero wheels are claimed to add about 10%, and the WLTP protocol is not entirely long distance motoring, the figures seem to suggest that aero wheels are primarily, if not entirely, responsible for the difference..

I would be very surprised if the software was tweaked between P3 and P3-, other than to limit top speed. What would be the reason for doing so?

they were all driven according to the same protocol. That's what EPA, WLTP etc is for.

The P and AWD are the same and the LR has about 8% more range than the AWD/P. The range loss from the 20" tires I cannot quite remember.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

How the front and rear motors are utilised can affect range, efficiency and performance and I assume it is those trade-offs that distinguish the Stealth and LR models

It just seems very strange. The efficiency tests are done at very low throttle inputs generally.

If anything, theoretically I would expect a Performance (Stealth of course) vehicle to have better efficiency, since the higher peak power requires lower losses in the drive units, which would apply at all powers (in theory, assuming power is limited by ability to get rid of waste heat - which it probably is not).

 

[rontheman]

they were all driven according to the same protocol. That's what EPA, WLTP etc is for.

The P and AWD are the same and the LR has about 8% more range than the AWD/P. The range loss from the 20" tires I cannot quite remember.

So far as I am aware, the P3- version has never been officially tested. I think we are saying the same thing, that AWD and P- (both with 18" aeros) have the same range. It's the 20" wheels on the P+ that reduce the range

 

[StealthP3D]

"Binned" means motors are tested after they come off the production line and only those that can handle Performance specs go into the "bin" for that Model 3 variant. I saw that process but cannot describe it here.

Thank you for confirming what Musk has already told us in no uncertain terms. These drive units are tested and Tesla records the differences and "bins" them. This should put this silly argument to bed but I've lived on this planet long enough to know it will not. People still believe man didn't walk on the moon (for crying out loud)!

For those interested in the variation in performance of individual SiC MOSFETs and the very real production challenges of using a silicon carbide substrate, I suggest they brush up on Silicon Carbide power transistor technology. Tesla does not make their own chips but they have to live with the natural variations in the current state-of-the-art chips. The circuits of a Tesla motor controller control incredible amounts of current at a wide range of frequencies and it's not uncommon for undesirable circuit resonances (ringing) to build up under high currents and certain frequencies. Circuits must be designed carefully and skillfully to avoid all kinds of problems and you never know when they might crop up. That's one reason why they individually test the assembled drive units and sort out the best ones to be eligible for the Performance model. The motors have natural variation as well since they are a manufactured product requiring very tight tolerances. These motors are not the motors in your mothers Mixmaster.

The technologies embraced by Tesla are bleeding-edge technologies (SiC MOSFET being introduced to the market in the last several years) and are still a bit of a black art with development advances happening every year. Tesla is very much an early adopter for the benefits SiC can provide. The last thing they want is for the power transistors to start failing down the road so you can bet your britches they are going to take reasonable steps to increase the reliability of the core part of their product (and the part under the most electrical stress). All that instantaneous power doesn't come from simply turning some mythical dial up to "11" without regard for the consequences.

I was extremely impressed by everything I saw at Giga 1 is all I can conclude under the NDA. The tour is highly recommended. Another tour participant described touring Giga 1 as "adult Disneyland"!

I would LOVE to tour Giga 1! Thanks for sharing what you could!

 

[dennistdk]

The wikipedia page for the Model 3 lists the rear motor output for everything except the LR AWD at 211kW (282HP). The LR AWD rear motor is rated at 188kW (252 HP). These figures are sourced from official DoE/EPA figures, who in turn would have been given them by Tesla. The front motors are all the same at 147kW (193HP). The combined outputs for the AWD LR and the P3 are 307kW (412HP) and 353kW (473HP) respectively. So the AWD LR has a lower total output than the aggregate of the individual motor outputs. Maybe different inverters account for the difference possibly plus software.

I would honestly be careful trusting Wikipedia here. They list the sources on the page as blog articles, dyno-results and reddit posts. None of which are official or reliable. I would instead trust the EU numbers on the EU car registrations (with all the EU laws and crazy regulations I think they should be pretty precise as listing too high numbers on legal papers can have a negative effect).

I listed them before and can do again (and I should probably learn to update wikipedia with the correct information) - here are the post 5% update numbers (March and forward registrations, would be all 990 for AWD) - and these are official numbers from EU papers that specifies each motor individually:

LR-AWD
Front at 155KW / 211 hp(M) / 208 hp(I)
Rear at 195KW / 265 hp(M) / 261 hp(I)
Total: 350KW / 476 hp(M) / 469 hp(I)

Performance
Front at 155KW / 211 hp(M) / 208 hp(I)
Rear at 205KW / 279 hp(M) / 275 hp(I)
Total: 360KW / 489 hp(M) / 483 hp(I)

Regarding the binning - I personally believe that there probably is a difference - also among "older" 980 motors, it's just based on the serial number and only Tesla can tell. When they started putting them in Model S, they probably changed so 980 is the "performance only / Model S" and 990 is the AWD. Only difference being an output variance of ~10KW as listed above (around 3-5% tolerance). It would still allow for a later update of AWD from the currently measured ~390-400 hp(I) to it's official registered maximum if Tesla wants to roll it out paid or not (the software build that I mentioned before that a few AWD users already have gotten).

 

[StealthP3D]

So far as I am aware, the P3- version has never been officially tested. I think we are saying the same thing, that AWD and P- (both with 18" aeros) have the same range. It's the 20" wheels on the P+ that reduce the range

The AWD, P3D- and P3D+ all have the same rated range and efficiency but the lack of Aero wheels and less efficient tires on the P3D+ will make it the least efficient of the bunch. It's also common sense that the binning done for the Performance Models over the AWD will result in a slightly higher average efficiency (although not nearly enough to overcome the extra efficiency of the Aero wheels).

Individual examples of every model will vary over a small range in terms of exact efficiency although you would need an extremely well-controlled testing protocol to actually measure it in a meaningful way. By comparison, the rated range/efficiency are very ballpark numbers but serve well-enough for consumers to compare across brands and models.

Two weeks ago I took my P3D- on a beautiful, high speed run from Anacortes, WA to Whitefish, MT and was blown away by the kind of efficiency I was seeing even when eating up the miles at my highest cruising speeds of 84-94 with occasional trips to 120 on some of the more deserted roads at first light of the day. I was blasting across the wide expanses of Eastern Washington and broad river canyons with sweeping turns and wide-open grass fields of Montana without care for efficiency and still returning very respectable numbers. I LOVE the way this car slices through the air without that "hitting the wall" feeling most cars have over 90.

 

[V__2]

@StealthP3D, I have been following the thread for a while. Glad there is someone like you who can be persistent in providing and explaining their point of view. There are a few vocal forum members that seem to be relentless in self-confirming their own theories on every discussion they participate in. Repeating it enough does not make it so. It is possible to come up with an explanation of events that defies logic but is not contradictory to facts. Just like in mathematics, an equation can have two answers but only one is applicable to real world.

 

[StealthP3D]

Based on this report (thank you by the way), the AWD cars that were update to Performance speed are at high or higher risk of motor failure. Based on what you were told, do you agree?

All Performance models are essentially a Model 3 AWD with different software. The only difference is the software and that the Performance models have drive units that tested to a high enough spec. Tesla will not convert an AWD to Performance unless it has a drive unit that tested to Performance spec. None of them (that I know about) have been failing. There were a few (two or three) early LR RWD Model 3's that made it out of the factory with defective drive units but I haven't heard a peep about drive unit failures since then.

If anything, and if the failure rate was high enough to do a statistical analysis on, I think it would be the AWD models with a slightly higher failure rate. We do know that even the Performance models that have been thrashed relentlessly at the racetrack have not had failures so Tesla must be doing something right!

 

[engle]

Tesla Gigafactory 1 Building Model in Sparks, NV (YouTube video)

Very helpful report. How does one arrange a tour?

In 2016 I joined Tesla Owners Club - NorCal-Reno before I attended TMC Connect 2016 in Reno:

http://www.norcalreno.com/

For Reno's "Hot August Nights 2019", the club sent out a blast email including 4 free Giga 1 tours over 2 days max 11 people per tour. I clicked on it right away before all the spaces were gone. We drove Fremont, CA <--> Reno, NV same day round trip on Friday, 8/9 to see it. Definitely worth the drive IMHO if you are interested in Tesla and/or tech!

Those tours were given in conjunction with Tesla's grand opening of their new sales and service center in Reno. Our tour guide said they have also done numerous tours for K-12 in the area to get kids excited about STEM. The very nice contract security officer that took our photos in the guest lobby (the only place you can photograph) shared that her veteran son works in Giga. Tesla seems to be very good about hiring veterans.

You can join the club for free, then click on "About Us" the club officers will probably organize more tours. One Reno guy on our tour said it was his 3rd time touring Giga.

Russ

"A Message from Tesla Owners Club - NorCal•Reno :

Hey folks--hope you have a fun tour this weekend. A reminder to please follow the guidelines we sent out a couple of days ago so you can go on your tour. One of our members also pointed out that there are wild horses along the approach to the Gigafactory and they are known to jaywalk, so please take extra care if you see them while you are driving.

Gigafactory Tour 2

Friday, August 9, 2019 from 3:00 PM to 4:30 PM (PDT)

Tesla Gigafactory
Electric Avenue
Sparks, NV 89434

Organized by Tesla Owners Club - NorCal•Reno"

 

[nuclearfusion]

...
I would be very surprised if the software was tweaked between P3 and P3-, other than to limit top speed. What would be the reason for doing so?

The non-cosmetic physical difference between P3+ and P3- are details such as performance braking, suspension settings, wheels and tyres. The performance of the high spec 'binned' motors and higher powered inverter of the P3- is toned down in software by removing track mode and reducing the maximum speed to better match the brakes and suspension but the stunning acceleration is the same as for the P3+.

 

[focher]

The performance of the high spec 'binned' motors and higher powered inverter of the P3- is toned down in software by removing track mode....

P3D- owners have reportedly been given Track Mode.

 

[nuclearfusion]

It is possible that TSLA Giga 1 is producing more motors that meet the "binned" performance specs then they need - although I have no evidence of this - it is pure speculation. Anyway, if I am wrong, then TSLA would be assuming more financial liability for warranty replacement motors in the future in return for extra $$$ upfront. ....

Firstly thanks for your clear and very informative earlier post.
As to your speculation, I think you are right. I suspect their tolerances are getting so good that they now produce most motors to 'binned' or performance specification. If that is so it makes sense, particularly for international markets, to ship all or most AWD vehicles with performance spec motors and inventers because they can then change them from the LR AWD to the P3- spec with nothing more than a software update. The logistical advantages would far outweigh the inverter cost difference. Of course cars fitted with non-performance spec motors and inverters would not have that flexibility and could only be marketed as LR AWD vehicles.