Ford automated charging prototype

[2101Guy]

Moderator note: Thread title has been edited from the original

Ford trials robot charging station for electric vehicles — Daily Mail

The Michigan-based car manufacturer has demonstrated a prototype system, developed by engineers at Dortmund University, Germany.

apple.news

 

[RTPEV]

How does this prototype beat Tesla's snake charger prototype unveiled years ago?

 

[Rocky_H]

What the everlovin' F? How is this clickbait false headline something you can post?

It's a prototype. And it's after Tesla did their prototype. You might have been able to say they "beat Tesla to the punch" if they brought it to actual production, but neither company has.

 

[Sophias_dad]

I'm a little skeptical about the market for this item, at least among the advertised audience. Don't get me wrong, I still think there will be some sold assuming it ever comes to market, but it will never make a profit. I also think that it should be a 'thing' even if it doesn't make a profit, for the few people it does help.

The market seems to be the intersection of:
mobility impaired
able to drive a car or van
NOT able to use a wheelchair, or at least to have not enough space for the wheelchair alongside the vehicle where the chargeport is(note that this latter concern is NOT a problem for Telsa, while it is a concern for Ford, and other manufacturers!) Not that a Tesla is particularly useful to someone needing a wheelchair. It almost seems like you'd need a helper to put the wheelchair away(presumably in the trunk) or get it ready, and if you have a helper they can also help with plugging in.

 

[bradtem]

This will be useful when Tesla decides to stop dicking around with FSD they won't deliver, and just do self-driving in a supercharger lot, so cars can pull in and out of charging stalls instead of having to wait in line. Or so they can make short drives at night to charging stations, with nobody in them, on empty roads. That I believe they can do, FSD not so much.

(You don't need this robot at the supercharger. A busy supercharger has tons of other drivers arriving and leaving who will plug and unplug as requested in their app, just as a favour to other drivers -- pay it forward -- or of course when they are unplugging a full car when they are waiting for a space, to reduce their wait.)

No more idle fees. No more getting up in the middle of a meal to move your car. I want that. FSD can wait.

 

[RTPEV]

This will be useful when Tesla decides to stop dicking around with FSD they won't deliver, and just do self-driving in a supercharger lot, so cars can pull in and out of charging stalls instead of having to wait in line. Or so they can make short drives at night to charging stations, with nobody in them, on empty roads. That I believe they can do, FSD not so much.

I think both of these scenarios, at a minimum, will require a high degree of "FSD" before being truly practical/approvable. Yes, it sounds easier to have cars driving around at night on "empty" roads, but unless there is going to be some kind of rule that non-self-driving is outlawed during certain hours, the roads cannot be guaranteed to be "empty". Plus, the scenarios in which driving to a central charging depot would be most beneficial (in denser urban areas where there is a lack of off-street parking) would be the ones more likely to NEVER have truly empty streets at any hour. Plus, if you don't have off-street parking, wouldn't you have to call for the car to come and pick you up (or drop you off) during hours when by definition there are likely to be cars on the road?

Maybe in an apartment complex or parking deck where the vehicles would not have to go off-property, but a better solution for that might be a robotic L2 charging station that moves from car to car, not the other way around.

(You don't need this robot at the supercharger. A busy supercharger has tons of other drivers arriving and leaving who will plug and unplug as requested in their app, just as a favour to other drivers -- pay it forward -- or of course when they are unplugging a full car when they are waiting for a space, to reduce their wait.)

I don't think this would be a totally reliable method. Better than what we have today, yes, but in this hypothetical scenario, are you thinking that some people would forego the automated queuing/parking system to serve as "pluggers/unpluggers"? And would this require some kind of staging area for cars waiting/completed to park?

No more idle fees. No more getting up in the middle of a meal to move your car. I want that. FSD can wait.

Me too, but on the other hand, most of my Supercharger stops are not sit-down meal types. I suppose that the ability to queue & park might open up more use cases where I would take a more casual approach to charging, but just having returned from an 1800 mile road trip (pretty much the only time I use Superchargers), most of my stops were in the 10-15 minute range, with a few under 10 minutes, and a a few as "high" as 20 minutes (suggested). On the one or two stops that I did sit down to eat, it was not that big a deal to get a few extra minutes while plugged in (maybe I charged to 80% instead of the target 60%). And none of the chargers were full anyway.

I suspect that in 5-7 years we will look back at this discussion and decide it was a solution in search of a problem, as I expect there to be pervasive charging options available in many outlets, if only because said outlets will need to keep up with their competition that already offers it (i.e. snowball effect) and the age of constrained charging will be a thing of the past. They might not all be 250-350kW high speed chargers, but a bank of 4 100kW (or even 50kW) chargers at each and every restaurant and convenience store outlet is going to lessen the need and use of mega-charger complexes.

BUT, if there is a need for some kind of semi-automated charging solution (either for road trip or central charging depot use), I could imagine a site designed with a well organized staging area with a confined and well defined path from the drop-off area to the charging stations, and then to the pick-up area. I do think that while navigating streets is complex, navigating a parking lot has its own unique challenges as it not necessarily simpler than driving on streets, at least one shared with human drivers, pedestrians, and other obstacles. But a more or less closed off area could be a far more controlled environment to operate in.

 

[bradtem]

I think both of these scenarios, at a minimum, will require a high degree of "FSD" before being truly practical/approvable. Yes, it sounds easier to have cars driving around at night on "empty" roads, but unless there is going to be some kind of rule that non-self-driving is outlawed during certain hours, the roads cannot be guaranteed to be "empty". Plus, the scenarios in which driving to a central charging depot would be most beneficial (in denser urban areas where there is a lack of off-street parking) would be the ones more likely to NEVER have truly empty streets at any hour. Plus, if you don't have off-street parking, wouldn't you have to call for the car to come and pick you up (or drop you off) during hours when by definition there are likely to be cars on the road?

Maybe in an apartment complex or parking deck where the vehicles would not have to go off-property, but a better solution for that might be a robotic L2 charging station that moves from car to car, not the other way around.

I don't think this would be a totally reliable method. Better than what we have today, yes, but in this hypothetical scenario, are you thinking that some people would forego the automated queuing/parking system to serve as "pluggers/unpluggers"? And would this require some kind of staging area for cars waiting/completed to park?

Me too, but on the other hand, most of my Supercharger stops are not sit-down meal types. I suppose that the ability to queue & park might open up more use cases where I would take a more casual approach to charging, but just having returned from an 1800 mile road trip (pretty much the only time I use Superchargers), most of my stops were in the 10-15 minute range, with a few under 10 minutes, and a a few as "high" as 20 minutes (suggested). On the one or two stops that I did sit down to eat, it was not that big a deal to get a few extra minutes while plugged in (maybe I charged to 80% instead of the target 60%). And none of the chargers were full anyway.

I suspect that in 5-7 years we will look back at this discussion and decide it was a solution in search of a problem, as I expect there to be pervasive charging options available in many outlets, if only because said outlets will need to keep up with their competition that already offers it (i.e. snowball effect) and the age of constrained charging will be a thing of the past. They might not all be 250-350kW high speed chargers, but a bank of 4 100kW (or even 50kW) chargers at each and every restaurant and convenience store outlet is going to lessen the need and use of mega-charger complexes.

BUT, if there is a need for some kind of semi-automated charging solution (either for road trip or central charging depot use), I could imagine a site designed with a well organized staging area with a confined and well defined path from the drop-off area to the charging stations, and then to the pick-up area. I do think that while navigating streets is complex, navigating a parking lot has its own unique challenges as it not necessarily simpler than driving on streets, at least one shared with human drivers, pedestrians, and other obstacles. But a more or less closed off area could be a far more controlled environment to operate in.

Late at night, the problem is simpler and traffic is mostly absent. Of course not entirely absent. They think they can drive in a crowded downtown at rush hour by the end of the year. They can't, but night driving to a charger is a problem they can solve a lot sooner, and probably just with cameras, because at night, if you are uncertain, you can just go slow, and you're not blocking traffic. People can go around you. You're only going a few miles.

As for whether there are people to plug and unplug your car -- yes, they will always be there. Remember, this is a full charger with people coming and going all the time. Don't need it at chargers less than 100% occupied. The person who arrives waiting for a charge will of course unplug all empty cars -- it gets them a charge sooner, even if there are others in line. While I don't think you need to you can even force drivers to cooperate -- plug/unplug the cars we show you or you won't get charged. Drivers returning for their cars same deal -- plug/unplug the others that need it, or next time this feature is not available for you when you need it and you have to sit and wait for your turn to come up. If it ever comes up. But we don't have to do this. I think almost ever Tesla driver would be happy to help a fellow driver out.

I don't agree that in 5 years we'll have so much charging that we never have to wait. I actually fear the reverse. That's because I don't want to go to charging stations. I want to go where I want to go, and I want charging there. Rather than having to pick a restaurant a short walk from a fast charger, I want to pick the restaurant I want to eat at, and as long as there's a charger not too far from it, the car will scurry off and get charged, and come back to the restaurant when its full (or when I ask, if that's sooner.) I don't want to have to alter my travels at all from what I desire because of charging, just like I don't at home, because my car always has enough charge for the day at home and I never travel an extra inch for charging.

 

[RTPEV]

Late at night, the problem is simpler and traffic is mostly absent. Of course not entirely absent. They think they can drive in a crowded downtown at rush hour by the end of the year. They can't, but night driving to a charger is a problem they can solve a lot sooner, and probably just with cameras, because at night, if you are uncertain, you can just go slow, and you're not blocking traffic. People can go around you. You're only going a few miles.

Words like "mostly" and "few" are problematic here. When it comes to being able to legally put a self driving vehicle on the road you would need to meet a standard of performance that doesn't rely on such fuzzy requirements.

I get what you are saying, and it is entirely true, but I just can't see regulators crafting some kind of approval for this kind of limited operation based on the likelihood that it's going to be alright.

As for whether there are people to plug and unplug your car -- yes, they will always be there. Remember, this is a full charger with people coming and going all the time. Don't need it at chargers less than 100% occupied. The person who arrives waiting for a charge will of course unplug all empty cars -- it gets them a charge sooner, even if there are others in line.

So if there is some kind of automated system in place where you park your car somewhere on site, not necessarily close to the chargers because the car is expected to drive to/from the chargers from/to the staging area, that when you arrive you are expected to walk over to the chargers and start unplugging and plugging in vehicles? Once you unplug a vehicle, do you have to wait for the next vehicle to arrive so you can plug that in? And then are you finally okay to go into the restaurant or whatever? Are you only obligated to do this once? And what happens if you've switched out one car ahead of you, then go into the restaurant, and five more cars get done charging before the next helpful driver shows up to unplug those five and plug in the replacement five? Does the whole operation just suddenly grind to a halt? While I think this may work smoothly some of the time, again, the random nature of arrivals and departures seems to me like best case it sort of defeats the purpose of what you're trying to accomplish, and worst case it could cause some serious inefficiency if people start depending on this. I think you need to think this one through some more and what it would really look like in practice. An automated system at a large site with a 20 minute wait and people getting out of the cars to go into a restaurant or other rest facility is not going to be like the gathering space we now see at non-automated Supercharger sites where yes, people are hanging out next to their cars because what else is there to do? If you give people the capability to just drop their car off at the door and be picked up when their car is done, that's what their going to do. There is not going to be a horde of people just standing by the Superchargers plugging & unplugging vehicles.

I don't agree that in 5 years we'll have so much charging that we never have to wait. I actually fear the reverse. That's because I don't want to go to charging stations. I want to go where I want to go, and I want charging there. Rather than having to pick a restaurant a short walk from a fast charger, I want to pick the restaurant I want to eat at, and as long as there's a charger not too far from it, the car will scurry off and get charged, and come back to the restaurant when its full (or when I ask, if that's sooner.) I don't want to have to alter my travels at all from what I desire because of charging, just like I don't at home, because my car always has enough charge for the day at home and I never travel an extra inch for charging.

All else equal, I would agree. I stopped in Breezewood, PA (where there are now two Supercharger sites located across the road from each other). This is an area that exists because of the highway, not the other way around. Sorry to my PA friends, but it's an ugly mish-mash of restaurants, gas stations, truck stops and hotels, and a bazillion cars entering and exiting the highway, creating what I can only describe is one of the most pedestrian UN-friendly environments you'd ever see (it's barely vehicle friendly). It's pretty near impossible to move from one parking lot to another without surrounding yourself with a 2-ton steel cage and driving there. So yes, in this case, if you want McDonalds rather than Burger King, you'd better hope that the McDonalds has a free charger. Get there at just after 5 other McDonalds lovers get there and you may be out of luck, while the Burger King may be empty. And forget about trying to walk between them.

This is one of the reasons I like sites like Moosic, PA and Glen Allen, VA that are located in shopping centers with a variety of restaurants & shops on site. The only drawback is that those venues have limited hours. So the travel center model with at least 24 hour bathroom access is probably best.

But you can pretty much forget about the dream of hopping out of your car at your restaurant of choice in Breezewood and then having the car go charge itself. I'm pretty sure you'd be done with your meal before the car managed to even get out of the parking lot! You might just be forced to go with your second choice (which happens anyway when traveling with others!)

But at the same time, with more chargers located at every exit, you might be able to just drive to the next exit to find an open stall at McDonalds.

 

[bradtem]

Words like "mostly" and "few" are problematic here. When it comes to being able to legally put a self driving vehicle on the road you would need to meet a standard of performance that doesn't rely on such fuzzy requirements.

I get what you are saying, and it is entirely true, but I just can't see regulators crafting some kind of approval for this kind of limited operation based on the likelihood that it's going to be alright.

So if there is some kind of automated system in place where you park your car somewhere on site, not necessarily close to the chargers because the car is expected to drive to/from the chargers from/to the staging area, that when you arrive you are expected to walk over to the chargers and start unplugging and plugging in vehicles? Once you unplug a vehicle, do you have to wait for the next vehicle to arrive so you can plug that in? And then are you finally okay to go into the restaurant or whatever? Are you only obligated to do this once? And what happens if you've switched out one car ahead of you, then go into the restaurant, and five more cars get done charging before the next helpful driver shows up to unplug those five and plug in the replacement five? Does the whole operation just suddenly grind to a halt? While I think this may work smoothly some of the time, again, the random nature of arrivals and departures seems to me like best case it sort of defeats the purpose of what you're trying to accomplish, and worst case it could cause some serious inefficiency if people start depending on this. I think you need to think this one through some more and what it would really look like in practice. An automated system at a large site with a 20 minute wait and people getting out of the cars to go into a restaurant or other rest facility is not going to be like the gathering space we now see at non-automated Supercharger sites where yes, people are hanging out next to their cars because what else is there to do? If you give people the capability to just drop their car off at the door and be picked up when their car is done, that's what their going to do. There is not going to be a horde of people just standing by the Superchargers plugging & unplugging vehicles.


All else equal, I would agree. I stopped in Breezewood, PA (where there are now two Supercharger sites located across the road from each other). This is an area that exists because of the highway, not the other way around. Sorry to my PA friends, but it's an ugly mish-mash of restaurants, gas stations, truck stops and hotels, and a bazillion cars entering and exiting the highway, creating what I can only describe is one of the most pedestrian UN-friendly environments you'd ever see (it's barely vehicle friendly). It's pretty near impossible to move from one parking lot to another without surrounding yourself with a 2-ton steel cage and driving there. So yes, in this case, if you want McDonalds rather than Burger King, you'd better hope that the McDonalds has a free charger. Get there at just after 5 other McDonalds lovers get there and you may be out of luck, while the Burger King may be empty. And forget about trying to walk between them.

This is one of the reasons I like sites like Moosic, PA and Glen Allen, VA that are located in shopping centers with a variety of restaurants & shops on site. The only drawback is that those venues have limited hours. So the travel center model with at least 24 hour bathroom access is probably best.

But you can pretty much forget about the dream of hopping out of your car at your restaurant of choice in Breezewood and then having the car go charge itself. I'm pretty sure you'd be done with your meal before the car managed to even get out of the parking lot! You might just be forced to go with your second choice (which happens anyway when traveling with others!)

But at the same time, with more chargers located at every exit, you might be able to just drive to the next exit to find an open stall at McDonalds.

I'm just saying that compared to the goal of real actual true full self driving, late night driving comes earlier. (Cruise has been operating unmanned in San Francisco now for a while, but only at night. Waymo which has been at it for a few more years runs during the day. Both stay out of downtown for now.) But even earlier is driving on slow, sparse roads, picking your route based on what you can do, not what a human would drive. Even sooner than that (ie. could do it now) is driving in parking lots you have good maps of, like supercharger locations.

The first step would be just that. You come to full charger and you park in another parking space in the lot, maybe even right across from the stalls with spaces reserved for waiting Teslas. Your car can easily handle the short jaunt to the stall when it's your turn. After you park your phone tells you "please plug/unplug in stalls 3A and 5B." You go do it. I think you would do it because it says please, but if for some reason that's not enough, Tesla could require it. You only do what is ready to do right then, takes you 20 seconds. You do not wait for anything unless your car is next, in which case you unplug the car in that stall, wait for it to leave and your car goes it (you can even manually drive it) and you plug in your own car.

Anything else to be done waits for the next person to arrive or to come collect their car and leave. That might mean some short waits. Don't have the data to say how long. Tesla would know exactly when each car would be full, and also when each car that is navigating to the charger will arrive. It will know if there is going to be too long a wait. In that situation, ideally rare, it might ask a person to wait, or ask a person very close to the charger to come do some swaps. Due to the GPS in their phones, it knows where every driver is and how long a walk it is to the station. Tesla could reward those who do this with various goodies -- free miles or best of all, priority in line. In fact, those waiting for a charge who are within a short walk would jump at the chance to get up and do some plug/unplug if it bumps their position in the line. They would probably pay for that privilege. But ideally the gaps are short and people charge in the order of arrival or whatever other order Tesla has chosen. On the other hand, letting the most eager person who is most willing to help get priority in line makes sense. After all, if you are that eager, you just hang around the station, which is what everybody has to do today, so you are always better off.

You could also just be "fair" and tell the next in line person "A car will be full in 5 minutes, opening up your slot. Sadly, nobody is around the station to plug you in, so get over to the station and do the plugging or lose your place in line."

I have no interest in eating at chain fast food restaurants.