Ford Fusion ENERGI or Model S ...

[wraithnot]

It isn't about cost or if I could afford one. It is about value. Am I getting my money worth.... with that I have to value what is important to me (and maybe others here). Things like: all electric (take that oil!) .. safety (lane keeping system --- maybe I should just not text and drive / Blind spot / etc) .. looks (a personal choice -- Tesla wins) .. and of course.. the $ (2 fusions for the cost of 1 S) .... Note: The cost to do some of these high tech options is nominal. Even added as an option at additional cost is fine.

I'm in a similar situation, but for slightly different reasons. In California, you can get a sticker from the DMV that allows you to use the carpool lane with a single occupant if you have a plug-in hybrid or pure EV (the plug in hybrid stickers and pure EV stickers are different colors, but at least at the moment they have the same expiration date). This sticker can knock at least half an hour off your daily commute in the San Fransisco bay area and thus it is a HUGE incentive. But after test driving a Chevy Volt and a Ford Fusion Hybrid (the closest thing to an Energi available until late January/early February) and drooling over a parked Model S, the list is down to the Fusion Energi and the Model S. California also has additional tax rebates for EVs / plug-in hybrids that depend on the size of the battery pack. When I crunched the numbers and considered all the tax rebates/tax credits, I found only about a $13,000 difference between a base model Energi and base Model S. I have a test drive in a Model S scheduled for Tuesday and I have a hunch I'll like it at least $13,000 more than the Fusion

I had a long chat with a Tesla salesperson on Friday to convince him I was worthy of a test drive. And he mentioned that the Model S was engineered with things like adaptive cruise control, lane departure warnings, etc. in mind, but the volume of cars they currently produce didn't allow them to negotiate a reasonable price for these systems. But they hope to offer them as upgrades to existing owners at some point in the next several years.

Now I can't test drive either the 40 kWh Model S or the Fusion Energi yet. But I was assured by the respective salesmen that the Fusion Energi is essentially a Fusion Hybrid with a much larger battery pack in the trunk and the 40 kWh Model S is exactly the same as the 85 kWh model S except for the battery and the software settings that control the current to the motor. So I should get a pretty good idea of how the two cars I am considering will stack up. And I certainly WANT the model S more at this point.

So at least for me, the comparison is basically that price, availability, and some advanced safety features favor the Fusion Energi, but performance, cabin technology, cargo capacity, pure EV-ness, and overall sexiness favors the Model S.

 

[jerry33]

With the minor exception of the Prius. In my informal 5 year survey people who drive the Prius normally (which is also subjective) get 40-42.

Anyone who gets 40-42 mpg in a Prius:

1. Lives in an area that gets very cold in winter.

2. Does mostly short trips.

3. Seldom checks tire pressure and/or doesn't put on LRR tires.

4. Has poor alignment.

5. Is doing something terribly wrong.

In general, you should get about double the mpg of the standard ICE car you were driving before. Paying a bit of attention to driving style will get you a lot more. Like this:

2004 Prius MPG from the logbook:
2003-2004 -- 50.8 mpg 17,628 miles
2005 -- 52.6 mpg 14,688 miles
2006 -- 56.3 mpg 16,174 miles
2007 -- 57.3 mpg 18,384 miles
2008 -- 59.9 mpg 21,755 miles
2009 -- 61.4 mpg 16,177 miles
2010 -- 65.2 mpg 12,134 miles
2011 -- 66.9 mpg 11,272 miles
2012 -- 69.0 mpg 14,960 miles (incomplete)

 

[Al Sherman]

Anyone who gets 40-42 mpg in a Prius:

1. Lives in an area that gets very cold in winter.

2. Does mostly short trips.

3. Seldom checks tire pressure and/or doesn't put on LRR tires.

4. Has poor alignment.

5. Is doing something terribly wrong.

In general, you should get about double the mpg of the standard ICE car you were driving before. Paying a bit of attention to driving style will get you a lot more. Like this:

2004 Prius MPG from the logbook:
2003-2004 -- 50.8 mpg 17,628 miles
2005 -- 52.6 mpg 14,688 miles
2006 -- 56.3 mpg 16,174 miles
2007 -- 57.3 mpg 18,384 miles
2008 -- 59.9 mpg 21,755 miles
2009 -- 61.4 mpg 16,177 miles
2010 -- 65.2 mpg 12,134 miles
2011 -- 66.9 mpg 11,272 miles
2012 -- 69.0 mpg 14,960 miles (incomplete)

You are clearly better at the game than I am. My "informal" survey didn't include me because I don't drive "normally" which I still say is subjective. Some of my survey participants tried to get lower than 40 and couldn't. I am not a hypermiler but I DO try most of the time. We do have Winter here but not what I'd consider very cold. Most of my trips are less than 20 miles round trip. My logbooks don't cover as many miles but my mileage isn't close. My lifetime average (5 years, 40k miles) is 49.
Obviously we both agree that 35 is WAY low but my mileage varied a lot from yours and as I said I DID try.

 

[jerry33]

Most of my trips are less than 20 miles round trip

That's the main cause right there. Mine are mostly twenty miles one way or more. A ten mile one way trip just barely warms the Prius up enough to get into the good mpg mode. The only time I've gotten as low as 35 mpg was on a vacation up north where it was -20 and I was in a small town so I seldom drove more than a couple of miles at a time during the week I was there.

 

[FlasherZ]

Re: Prius... I've gotten them as rental cars 4 times. Each time I've been unable to get more than 35 mpg. 28, 31, 32, and 29 mpg. Not that I wasn't trying, but I drove it like I drive every other car I've owned. I don't spend 30 seconds going from 0-30 from a light, I don't hold up traffic behind me at 10 mph between lights because it might be red... etc.

Either way, even at 60 mpg they're still horribly 35% less efficient than a Model S and represent a dinosaur that is the proverbial "lipstick on a pig". I could go on about the condescending "I'm saving the world" attitude of the majority of Prius owners I've met (don't worry, there are some good ones out there, too, and those interested in the Model S generally fall on the good side of the spectrum), but I'll just reiterate that this isn't a trial of the Prius, but rather a recognition that the Model S is, head and shoulders, above anything else out there. Period -- there is no competition.

PS - I recognize this borders on the topic of the snippiness thread. Rams and Colts lost today, so I'm taking it out on the Prius.

 

[jerry33]

Re: Prius... I've gotten them as rental cars 4 times. Each time I've been unable to get more than 35 mpg. 28, 31, 32, and 29 mpg.

It takes some practice to get good, and I doubt if the rental cars were set up all that well. Giving someone a Stradivarius doesn't make them a virtuoso. It took me two years to get my first 60 mpg tank.

a recognition that the Model S is, head and shoulders, above anything else out there. Period -- there is no competition.

No question that the Model S makes the Prius look like a Model T. However, compared to a standard ICE car, the Prius is simpler mechanically and more fun to drive.

 

[FlasherZ]

It takes some practice to get good, and I doubt if the rental cars were set up all that well. Giving someone a Stradivarius doesn't make them a virtuoso. It took me two years to get my first 60 mpg tank.

I will also note that years ago I started keeping a count of a) Pri-i that I passed, and b) Pri-i that passed me. That count reached 517 - 6 at one point before I stopped counting.

 

[jerry33]

I will also note that years ago I started keeping a count of a) Pri-i that I passed, and b) Pri-i that passed me. That count reached 517 - 6 at one point before I stopped counting.

I kind of don't understand how that's relevant. I find the Prius will teach you how to drive economically if you let it, and after being taught, it's much more fun to drive relaxed than always being hyped up over the slow car in front of you--and there is always a slow car in front of you, or a red light, or a train, or a flag-person. It also teaches you that if there are any stop lights on your trip you get to your destination at the same time (I wouldn't have believed this before Prius ownership, but it's true. All that driving faster does is make you wait longer at the red lights.)

 

[FlasherZ]

I kind of don't understand how that's relevant. I find the Prius will teach you how to drive economically if you let it, and after being taught, it's much more fun to drive relaxed than always being hyped up over the slow car in front of you--and there is always a slow car in front of you, or a red light, or a train, or a flag-person. It also teaches you that if there are any stop lights on your trip you get to your destination at the same time (I wouldn't have believed this before Prius ownership, but it's true. All that driving faster does is make you wait longer at the red lights.)

And I have the opposite experience, catch a few lights faster than that slower driver, you'll arrive to your (5 mile) destination sometimes a full 10 minutes ahead of that other person, depending upon how you drive. This has been tested when leaving at precisely the same time from the same source location, and arriving at my destination ahead of my co-worker -- who happened to drive a Prius -- with an agreement to stay at/under the speed limit.

I don't doubt that in a couple of micro-cases you will pass a bicyclist, then sit at a red light as he catches up to you. But chances are you're going to beat a couple of lights that bicyclist won't over the long haul.

 

[jerry33]

And I have the opposite experience, catch a few lights faster than that slower driver, you'll arrive to your destination sometimes a full 10 minutes ahead of that other person, depending upon how you drive. This has been tested when leaving at precisely the same time from the same source location, and arriving at my destination ahead of my co-worker -- who happened to drive a Prius -- with an agreement to stay at/under the speed limit.

Your commute is obviously different than mine I see the same cars at the light that passed me--often for several (4-5) lights in a row. On my commute with the pre-Prius car it took 30-45 minutes--depending upon lights and traffic--to get to work and that was driving mostly 5-10 mph over the speed limit. With the Prius it takes 30-45 minutes mostly at the speed limit or a bit under. And I'm far more relaxed at the end of the drive.

 

[Al Sherman]

I don't think there's any snippiness at all. I think we all agree; the Model S is the deal. The thing about driving habits is just personal preference. I do agree with Jerry though. I love the mileage game with the Prius. It's been a really fun 5 years for me. AND, I agree that it really made me realize how inefficiently the average person drives. I studied the Hypermiling techniques on Prius Chat for years and really did try pretty hard to get a high number. I had my share of 55 and 56 mile tanks but never a 60. Clearly my average was 49. I also believe that my experience with the Prius will help me get better range from the S.
As far as the saving the world thing; that's a nice little bonus. However, and not to get political, or personal my motivation has always been primarily to stop making people rich who strap bombs to their children.

 

[archibaldcrane]

Im in the same boat, considering the fusion energi or lincoln mkz hybrid instead of my model s reservation, just because of price. However, until i can test drive the other two, im continuing to prepare for my time to build email.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[montgom626]

Apples to Oranges, most of us are interested in an all electric vehicle. 20 mile electric range is a non starter.

Why bother with a car that is limited to 20 miles EV?

 

[roblab]

Anyone who gets 40-42 mpg in a Prius:

1. Lives in an area that gets very cold in winter.

2. Does mostly short trips.

3. Seldom checks tire pressure and/or doesn't put on LRR tires.

4. Has poor alignment.

5. Is doing something terribly wrong.

Just to help make your list more complete, I live on top of a small 1500' hill. Any drive down the hill with the Prius means that the battery is full after about the first curve, and the engine is racing to slow the car, but can't, and you use the brakes. Virtually no regen capability for the last several miles down. Then to town, yeah, I get near 50 mpg round trip. But coming back up the hill ruins any hopes of average mileage. One lane, 45 mph, can't creep, cars stack up behind unless you move it. Average mileage: 37.

Now, renting a Prius in England, I got the trip mileage meter up to 70.3 by the end of ten days. So I know how to do it. It's just that hills and mileage, in a Prius, is an oxymoron. Or "are" an oxymoron. Whatever.

 

[GSP]

.. I do agree with Jerry though. I love the mileage game with the Prius. It's been a really fun 5 years for me. AND, I agree that it really made me realize how inefficiently the average person drives. I studied the Hypermiling techniques on Prius Chat for years and really did try pretty hard to get a high number. I had my share of 55 and 56 mile tanks but never a 60. Clearly my average was 49. I also believe that my experience with the Prius will help me get better range from the S.
As far as the saving the world thing; that's a nice little bonus....

I also agree with Jerry.

Al's Prius experience is exactly my experience with my Volt. It is much more enjoyable to drive when concentrating on keeping your momentum, planning 2-3 moves ahead of the game. Let the idiots rush up to the next red light, slam on their brakes, and wait while their ICE idles away. That used to be me. Life is much better now.

GSP

 

[archibaldcrane]

Why bother with a car that is limited to 20 miles EV?

Price?

Sent from my SGH-T959V using Tapatalk 2

 

[jerry33]

Why bother with a car that is limited to 20 miles EV?

The idea of this kind of car (like a PiP) isn't the same idea as a Volt. In my opinion, it's to make up for the shortcomings of vehicles like the standard Prius. If you drive it like a Volt (use EV till the batteries are down, then run on gas), you won't be able to get the best out of it (Unless you stop every few miles to charge up--annoying at best). The areas of inefficiencies are:

1. Driveway shuffle. (The engine starts in seven seconds and runs for no good reason)

2. Short trips to the store (1-4 miles). (The engine never warms up so mpg tanks)

3. Very short, but steep uphills. (Where you need to rev the engine to keep up speed)

4. The first slow side streets until you get to the main street (assuming there is more than a couple of blocks). (where you can warm the engine up more rapidly and get into the efficient mode)

When using a short-range EV-hybrid the plan is to use the battery only in those four conditions until near the end of the driving day and then, if there is still battery left, go home in EV mode. That allows the gas engine to run in the most efficient mode virtually 100% of the time it's on and gets the most EV driving out of that car.

- - - Updated - - -

Now, renting a Prius in England, I got the trip mileage meter up to 70.3 by the end of ten days. So I know how to do it. It's just that hills and mileage, in a Prius, is an oxymoron. Or "are" an oxymoron. Whatever.

Imperial gallons always help mpg

However, hills shouldn't really be a problem--at least I haven't found them to be all that bad. An example trip with a lot of hills between 400 ft and 5,000 ft elevation. Headwinds and sidewinds take a toll.

DATE__________ODO____INC_____AVG
--- Trip to AZ starts here
12/04/08____85560____501____62.3 (3.8)
-- 27 F here
12/06/08____85929____368____53.4 (4.4)
12/07/08____86322____392____56.7 (4.1)
12/08/08____86800____478____60.8 (3.9)
12/13/08____87232____431____57.4 (4.1)
12/14/08____87673____440____63.3 (3.9)
-- 25 F here and 50 mph winds
12/17/08____88133____459____56.3 (4.2)
--- Trip to AZ ends here

 

[vfx]

... In California, you can get a sticker from the DMV that allows you to use the carpool lane with a single occupant if you have a plug-in hybrid or pure EV (the plug in hybrid stickers and pure EV stickers are different colors, but at least at the moment they have the same expiration date)......

The yellow sticker have finally gone away. They had been extended i think twice. In one day we had 50,000 cars emptied out of the HOV lanes.

The new green ones will likely sunset next with the whites extended again. (Unless GM does some more "lobbying")

 

[brianman]

Calling a hybrid an EV is kinda of like checking off "single" when you've been "separated" from your wife for an hour.

 

[Robert.Boston]

Why bother with a car that is limited to 20 miles EV?

There are a lot of urban drivers, like me, who rarely exceed 20 miles of driving during a weekday. Lots of stop-and-go, in-city driving that is horribly inefficient in a standard ICE, or even a hybrid without stop/start tech. Given my pattern of driving -- my trips are either very short, or rather long -- I would arguably have been better off in a Fusion Energi or a Volt than a Model S. The Model S is way ​better to drive, though.