Fossil Fuel Divestment - Saudis Want Out

[nwdiver]

many of you just have an issue with the US/western styled capitalism

If there are any posts here against 'US/western styled capitalism' I haven't seen them. Most of us are just rational enough to accept that there are some issues capitalism cannot solve. ~90% of the time Capitalism does great... but that means ~10% of the time we need another solution..... The fact I love my Tesla doesn't mean I hate bicycles. For example; capitalism works great for finding solutions to climate change... it's absolutely terrible at implementing them.

Don't be so dogmatic. The profit motive has its place... but sometimes the objective needs to be making society a better place.

 

[kort677]

Not lending money, profiting from it:

Q&A: Islamic finance

"Central to Islamic finance is the fact that money itself has no intrinsic value, it is simply a medium of exchange. Each unit is 100% equal in value to another unit of the same denomination and you are not allowed to make a profit by exchanging cash with another person. A Muslim is not allowed to benefit from lending money or receiving money from someone."

I agree with your comment about not profiting from loan money, I was addressing the usury component of the comment

 

[TheTalkingMule]

For example; capitalism works great for finding solutions to climate change... it's absolutely terrible at implementing them.

Don't be so dogmatic. The profit motive has its place... but sometimes the objective needs to be making society a better place.

I always like to point to Germany when people talk capitalism vs socialism. All they did was start with a semi-socialist concept that people should be heavily compensated to produce renewable energy while the industry scales and those people have grid priority over other wholesale sources. Simple and rational.

From there German industry executed one of the bettter capitalist exercises this century. In December of 2011 they installed more solar than the US has in the first half of 2017.

Capitalism is an amazing tool, not a religion.

 

[Skotty]

I always like to point to Germany when people talk capitalism vs socialism. All they did was start with a semi-socialist concept that people should be heavily compensated to produce renewable energy while the industry scales and those people have grid priority over other wholesale sources. Simple and rational.

From there German industry executed one of the bettter capitalist exercises this century. In December of 2011 they installed more solar than the US has in the first half of 2017.

Capitalism is an amazing tool, not a religion.

Capitalism is great, but it needs to have the externalities priced appropriately. Just because you can make money doing something doesn't mean you should. Take drug trafficking as an example. In that case, the priced of the externality is that you go to jail if you get caught. I don't think people should have to go to jail for emitting greenhouse gases during a period of excessive global warming, but it should probably have some increasing cost associated with it.

I certainly wouldn't want any investments in fossil fuels right now, and if I did have any, I would sell quickly.

 

[SageBrush]

Capitalism is great, but it needs to have the externalities priced appropriately.

Exactly

 

[Merrill]

I always like to point to Germany when people talk capitalism vs socialism. All they did was start with a semi-socialist concept that people should be heavily compensated to produce renewable energy while the industry scales and those people have grid priority over other wholesale sources. Simple and rational.

From there German industry executed one of the bettter capitalist exercises this century. In December of 2011 they installed more solar than the US has in the first half of 2017.

Capitalism is an amazing tool, not a religion.

How come 40% of their power is from coal and Merkle supports that.

 

[navguy12]

Capitalism is great, but it needs to have the externalities priced appropriately

100% agree. Folks whose business plans curently require continued socialization of their true costs are upset being called out on it.

 

[mspohr]

How come 40% of their power is from coal and Merkle supports that.

More cowbell

 

[navguy12]

How come 40% of their power is from coal and Merkle supports that

Random guess, it's the short term cost to get off the nuclear merry-go-round.

 

[TheTalkingMule]

Will be very interesting to see where this year's budget deficit ends up. Also keeping an eye on all the Gulf carriers as airline subsidies are certainly disappearing more rapidly than those for the wider population. What kind of deficits will we see there?

Saudi Arabia Weighs Slower Subsidy, Budget Cuts to Aid Economy

Saudi Arabia may cut energy subsidies more gradually and take longer to balance its budget, Finance Minister Mohammed Al-Jadaan said, as the kingdom seeks to soften the impact of the drive to repair public finances on the economy, Bloomberg News reports.​

 

[TheTalkingMule]

Saudi Aramco considers shelving international IPO: FT - Saudi Aramco considers shelving international IPO: FT

 

[kort677]

Saudi Aramco considers shelving international IPO: FT - Saudi Aramco considers shelving international IPO: FT

so it looks like that they won't be able to divest their interests so easily. what do you believe their next move is?

 

[mspohr]

Saudi Aramco denies it is planning to shelve $2 trillion listing

Saudi Aramco denies it is planning to shelve $2 trillion listing

Saudis now saying that they are on track for the listing to proceed.
(Some problems finding a place to do the listing as the UK was recently outed for bending the rules.)

 

[TheTalkingMule]

We'll this is a bit surprising.

Billionaire Saudi Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal reportedly arrested in corruption crackdown - Billionaire Saudi Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal reportedly arrested in corruption crackdown

 

[traxila]

We'll this is a bit surprising.

Billionaire Saudi Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal reportedly arrested in corruption crackdown - Billionaire Saudi Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal reportedly arrested in corruption crackdown

This is not good. As ffed up as Saudi Arabia is as any kind of state, it seems it is about to get much worse. Seems the King himself openly questions the viability of his government going forward and is taking steps to ensure his rule as a despot with fear and loathing... wish I could say he did not have much company...

 

[traxila]

This is not good. As ffed up as Saudi Arabia is as any kind of state, it seems it is about to get much worse. Seems the King himself openly questions the viability of his government going forward and is taking steps to ensure his rule as a despot with fear and loathing... wish I could say he did not have much company...

Please ignore previous post. Going to on record as "Don't have a clue".

 

[TheTalkingMule]

This essentially halts any effort to diversify beyond oil and represents the beginning of the end for Saudi Arabia. I see no avenue to stability after this move.

Who is now going to shift operations to the new Saudi banking district and risk being randomly arrested?

Who is going to host an Aramco offering? They can basically offer local IPO, sell a chunk to China, then move to Switzerland.

Am I missing something?

 

[Ulmo]

Somehow, I think this will have ramifications for our future, and I found some optimistic versions that at least give me hope that it will be good. For instance, here are lots of happy words about MbS right now from others:

Unrolled Twitter story from @ThomasWictor (28 tweets)
Saudi Royalty Arrests Rock Clinton-Obama Regime – Zach Haller – Medium
Unrolled Twitter story from @Imperator_Rex3 (65 tweets) #TheStorm
Prince aims to rebrand Saudi Arabia from 9/11 hotbed of extreme Islam
AP ANALYSIS: Saudi crown prince's arrests are a risky gamble

and an older article discussing MbS moving to ready for increasing solar use (with some older hints about strife with the prior opposite-type USA admin):

Saudi Arabia’s Solar Planning is Paved in Oil Production

It seems Saudi Arabia is cleaning up in more ways than one. Let's hope no one stops them from that, and that they go that path.

I'll say it again: Clean energy is related strongly to clean morals.

 

[mspohr]

Somehow, I think this will have ramifications for our future, and I found some optimistic versions that at least give me hope that it will be good. For instance, here are lots of happy words about MbS right now from others:

Unrolled Twitter story from @ThomasWictor (28 tweets)
Saudi Royalty Arrests Rock Clinton-Obama Regime – Zach Haller – Medium
Unrolled Twitter story from @Imperator_Rex3 (65 tweets) #TheStorm
Prince aims to rebrand Saudi Arabia from 9/11 hotbed of extreme Islam
AP ANALYSIS: Saudi crown prince's arrests are a risky gamble

and an older article discussing MbS moving to ready for increasing solar use (with some older hints about strife with the prior opposite-type USA admin):

Saudi Arabia’s Solar Planning is Paved in Oil Production

It seems Saudi Arabia is cleaning up in more ways than one. Let's hope no one stops them from that, and that they go that path.

I'll say it again: Clean energy is related strongly to clean morals.

Don't know if this is a cleaning up or just the usual palace infighting. The arrest of dissident clerics,intellectuals, and the brutal war against Yemen (plus threats against Qatar) would argue for a despots consolidation of power rather than a cleaning up.
We shall see.

 

[TheTalkingMule]

It was disappointing to see people lapping up that Obama angle yesterday. He did nothing but work quietly(and sometimes openly) against the Saudi's his entire time in office and in a lot of ways made the Arab Spring possible. How absorb and accept this nonsense is beyond me. It's like believing I'm secretly trying to help the Mets.

Anywho....the plan is certainly in full swing. Consolidate power, secure US support, pick a fight with underfunded enemies in the region to create uncertainty and boost the price of oil. A quarter of our planet in disarray all so 20-40 royals can grab a few more billions before jumping ship.

Apparently this is just the beginning, should be interesting to see how much further this can be taken. Either way, there's now zero chance of any non-oil markets moving into the Saudi economic zones, which I could have sworn was the centerpiece of the 2030 Plan. Without the ability to diversify, the looming decline of oil means the royal family must continually ratchet up expensive public control mechanisms just as revenue is about to permanently plummet.

Spring 2019 should be a very interesting and messy time in Saudi Arabia.