Frame Failure called "Normal Wear and Tear" by Tesla Service

[SMAlset]

I would not be surprised that they installed the part since you did ask them to order it. Not like they were going to order and store it until you decided. I kind of get your point but I personally would just be happy the car was back in operation for that amount, which sounds kind of minimal. Before we got rid of our Toyota Avalon we probably spent that much on getting the AC issue repaired. That was a nightmare as it took countless trips from local shop and dealership service center to fix and it probably ran about the same as your repair. 175,000 miles and a 2001. Up until that point we only had regular car maintenace needed.

If there was a history of that part failing I could see a case for recall/goodwill but otherwise just the luck of the draw on what I assume has been a good car to own.

BTW you posted before I submitted my post so not meaning to rehash the order part. I'm just surprised I guess that you'd want them to remove the part and give it back to you the way it was. Sometimes decisions don't go in one's favor and while it can be satisfying to fight something like this I suppose I wonder if it's more about getting something for free.

I've never heard of a dealership service center (yes I know Tesla doesn't have dealerships) ever installing a pulled salvage/used part for using in a repair they are doing.

 

[sorka]

My premises is there is NO WARRANTY, Tesla owes you nothing, period. Sorry, your feelings are irrelevant. You are expecting a lifetime warranty because its a non moving part, which is also irrelevant. Tesla is not in the goodwill business....And bmw did not make repairs for 10 years...I replaced the subframe mounts on a e30 and a e36.

Parts fail and your car has 170k. Abuse AND failure to maintain the suspension CAN stress the subgrame. What do you think attaches to the subframe?

Safety recalls don't have a mileage or time limit. If this is not an outlier as more and more S's approach this mileage, it will be covered by a recall.

 

[MP3Mike]

Those conversations have come up and your point is taken. The conversation was to get the part ordered to get the ball moving and it was definitely attached to the explore goodwill caveat. There was definitely something off about ignoring the goodwill issue until after the part was installed.
At one point today they agreed to put the car back to it's state upon arrival, but now they say they won't do that. Best they will do is pull the new part and have me tow it away.

They won't goodwill the $500 labor, but they will spend more labor to remove the new part? That seems silly. I think it would be a good comprimse for both of you, essentially splitting the difference right down the middle. (At least for getting a used part, not quite as good for you if you were going to just repair your broken sub-frame.)

Have you submitted an executive escalation request to see if you can get the head office to help out?

 

[andystj]

Alignment issues, wheel balance issues, worn suspension, potholes, abuse, etc are things could wear to the failure of your subframe. Also 170k....

But you never answered my questions? Did you get a loaner from Tesla for 2 weeks? You authorized them to order the part... I am trying to figure out why you left the car there when they told you they were not going to goodwill the repair.

I'm honestly not too interested in debating with you, but I will answer your questions.

Alignment has been kept, wheel balance has been fine. Linkages fine. Air suspension solid. No abuse. Good roads. Very slow over all speed bumps. No jumping.

It is metal sheering away from the frame. It is a bizarre failure that should be analyzed, explained and understood. I'm not saying that I'm "owed" anything, but it should have been given consideration, and the decision should have been communicated to me in a timely manner with options to move forward. Because of the need to drop the motor, the weld option did not make much sense because of the logistics of using the overcrowded collision shop authorized for that work, so I suggested that we get the part ordered. The notion of getting a subframe out of a car with front-end damage occurred to me later, but I was waiting to hear from Tesla on the goodwill before raising that possibility with them. I did not want to undermine my request that they repair it under goodwill, which I still maintain is the right solution given the shearing away of metal on the structure.

Regarding a loaner. . . From the outset, I suggested that this should not qualify for a loaner, and asked if I should call an Uber or if they could drop me off while the issues were researched and a plan was decided. They told me that they were happy to provide a loaner, but it would have to be an ICE from Hertz. I was not going to argue with them about it, but it was never supposed to be a two week issue. I expected a call back on the goodwill issue on that day or Monday at the latest.

They never told me that they were not going to goodwill the repair until today. They did not tell me that until AFTER they installed the part. I did Uber away today which I would have done two weeks ago. There was never any notion that it would be two weeks. I would have brought the loaner back on Day 1, Day 2, Day 3. . .

It's honestly not enough money to argue about, but the way it played out with the communication left me a bit dug in.
It's not an abuse or suspension issue. It's a frame failing for no apparent reason other than general metal fatigue. It is an issue that should be considered and acted upon. Not dissimilar to the E46 10-year goodwill decision by BMW.

I expect the BMW goodwill policy was not offered to the very first person that it happened to when it occurred. Probably happened many times to show a pattern. Unfortunately one (that we know of) is not a pattern

I think this is right, but it doesn't make if feel less crappy to have a car fall apart beneath you.

 

[andystj]

Have you submitted an executive escalation request to see if you can get the head office to help out?

Is there a mechanism to do that? I have specifically asked and the service center does a complete stonewall.

 

[MP3Mike]

Is there a mechanism to do that? I have specifically asked and the service center does a complete stonewall.

Yes via your My Tesla page on the website.

 

[andystj]

Yes via your My Tesla page on the website.

That felt so much more satisfying than tweeting to Elon Musk. I'm not convinced that it will help, but it really did feel like a way around the stone wall. Thanks.

 

[MP3Mike]

That felt so much more satisfying than tweeting to Elon Musk. I'm not convinced that it will help, but it really did feel like a way around the stone wall. Thanks.

I think they tend to be good, but from what I have seen the response time can be a little variable.

Personally, since this seems to be a very rare failure, I haven't seen anyone report one not related to an accident, that they should goodwill most, if not all, of the cost. I would hope that they want to keep the failed part to have analyzed to see if they could have a bad batch that they need to deal with, but they might not do that until they see more failures. (If this isn't a one-off failure.)

 

[u00mem9]

It’s a 2012...everything on the car is prototype. It’s like having a model 3 built in 2017. You are basically driving a development mule.

That said, if the design hasn’t changed and every rear subframe fails those bushing ears at 170k, it won’t be very good PR for Tesla. Unlimited mile drive unit warranty, but the part it bolts to falls apart at 170k...not great.

 

[andystj]

It’s a 2012...everything on the car is prototype. It’s like having a model 3 built in 2017. You are basically driving a development mule.

That said, if the design hasn’t changed and every rear subframe fails those bushing ears at 170k, it won’t be very good PR for Tesla. Unlimited mile drive unit warranty, but the part it bolts to falls apart at 170k...not great.

My understanding is that the design has not changed, with the exception that two of the parts on the side of the subframe which used to be from a solid block are now welded on. Nothing that impacts the mounting of the motor into this carriage has changed.

I think your assessment is exactly correct. Failures on AC/Heater, Door Handles, Linkages, Air Suspension, Linkages are likely to occur. This felt different in a very real way. The car literally tore itself apart at the foundation.

 

[CUBldr97]

can you highlight the part that is sheered, I don't know what i am looking fro in the pictures...

As for metal fatigue or sheering, seems to me the frame / sub frame should have a 10 year corrosion warranty on it...

 

[andystj]

can you highlight the part that is sheered, I don't know what i am looking fro in the pictures...

As for metal fatigue or sheering, seems to me the frame / sub frame should have a 10 year corrosion warranty on it...

No "corrosion" on aluminum to speak of.
I always find it amazing that aluminum patio furniture comes with a "lifetime warranty against rust."

I'm not supremely gifted with photoshop or even uploading pictures on Imgur, but look at the large square tube in the bottom of the picture. The two nubs coming up from the welds in the center are supposed to be thick aluminum plates that have a mounting hole at the top. There is a similar bracket at the large square tube at the top of the picture for reference. The drivetrain is cradled within this subframe and attaches at these two brackets as well as a third bracket on the right side.

 

[CUBldr97]

No "corrosion" on aluminum to speak of.
I always find it amazing that aluminum patio furniture comes with a "lifetime warranty against rust."

I'm not supremely gifted with photoshop or even uploading pictures on Imgur, but look at the large square tube in the bottom of the picture. The two nubs coming up from the welds in the center are supposed to be thick aluminum plates that have a mounting hole at the top. There is a similar bracket at the large square tube at the top of the picture for reference. The drivetrain is cradled within this subframe and attaches at these two brackets as well as a third bracket on the right side.

ah ok i see it, so in ice terms these would be "engine mounts" I would say you have an agrument that these should not have been able to break... or at least the mounts should be replaceable..

 

[andystj]

ah ok i see it, so in ice terms these would be "engine mounts". . . .

Yes, but the difference is that "engine mounts" are made with rubber bushings which are designed to move and absorb the severe vibration of thousands of small explosions happening within an ICE. The rubber can and does wear out. These are solid connection points which should be designed to handle the known loads and stresses exerted by the electric motor.

Some might argue that the stresses can be changed by issues with alignment or abuse. There were no such conditions in this case, and as I see it, this has to be caused by either a latent defect in the manufacturing/materials or an engineering failure. In the former case, I may be a one of. In the latter case, I may be the canary in the coalmine. In either case, it seems like a good opportunity for Tesla Service to step up and solve the problem. My view is that if this is a first occurrence, the part should be sent to Freemont for analysis.

 

[gbdesai]

I posted this an hour ago under the Model S Technical / Mechanical Issues #3117, but a general post about the service experience seems appropriate in light of Tesla's decision to not look at this from an engineering standpoint but rather to just deny goodwill, swap out the part and move on.

I hope I'm not the canary in the coal-mine, but my rear subframe sheared apart at the rear connection to the drive train. I do drive a lot, so my 2012 P85 is approaching 170,000. That said, I have never thought of frames as a "wear and tear" part. Nonetheless, Tesla service apparently does and decided that I should pay $2035 to have it replaced. I am beyond frustrated.

There was no collision, no bottoming out, no drama. I was just backing out of a parking spot and I hear THUNK THUNK THUNK. Upon diagnosis at the service center, I told them to explain the situation up the line and request the repair be done on a goodwill basis. I know my mileage is high, but this is not a water pump. It is a FRAME FAILURE. It is the structural skeleton of the car and it should not wear out. The stresses from the motor are known and the engineering should be correct on a part like this. There had to be some sort of materials defect or heaven forbid an engineering defect. Frames don't just break.

The only other idea that has come up is that they may have over-tightened the mount and created the stress when they swapped out the drive train a few months ago.

The only analogy I can find is the BMW E46 3 Series where the subframe was pulling against the unibody and causing cracks in the body. Guess what BMW did. Ten years of goodwill repairs regardless of mileage and design changes to stop the issue. In my case, they were just planning on sending the subframe off to recycling and moving on.

I would really appreciate any advise on how to proceed or get this escalated to someone who cares to take a considered approach.

Thanks,
Andy


You can see another view in the original link, but here is a closeup of wear the metal sheared away.

I just got the same diagnosis and I have a 2013 P85 with just 77K miles on it. WTF?

 

[carlosb]

Yes, but the difference is that "engine mounts" are made with rubber bushings which are designed to move and absorb the severe vibration of thousands of small explosions happening within an ICE. The rubber can and does wear out. These are solid connection points which should be designed to handle the known loads and stresses exerted by the electric motor.

Some might argue that the stresses can be changed by issues with alignment or abuse. There were no such conditions in this case, and as I see it, this has to be caused by either a latent defect in the manufacturing/materials or an engineering failure. In the former case, I may be a one of. In the latter case, I may be the canary in the coalmine. In either case, it seems like a good opportunity for Tesla Service to step up and solve the problem. My view is that if this is a first occurrence, the part should be sent to Freemont for analysis.

Hey andystj,

Thanks for sharing your experience with the cracked subframe. I am in a similar situation as you were in, I have a 2012 P85 with 90,000 miles. I noticed the car fishtail when I accelerated, took it in to Tesla service and they explained that I had a crack in my subframe. I was quoted $3,300 to have this fixed, just seeing what the end result was for you or any thoughts on this matter. Thanks

 

[carlosb]

I just got the same diagnosis and I have a 2013 P85 with just 77K miles on it. WTF?

Hello gbdesai,
Thanks for sharing your experience with the cracked subframe. I am in a similar situation as you were in, I have a 2012 P85 with 90,000 miles. I noticed the car fishtail when I accelerated, took it in to Tesla service and they explained that I had a crack in my subframe. I was quoted $3,300 to have this fixed, just seeing what the end result was for you or any thoughts on this matter. Thanks

 

[sorka]

Is there a mechanism to do that? I have specifically asked and the service center does a complete stonewall.

Have you tried twitter?

 

[sorka]

For anyone this has happened to, please make sure you file it with the NHTSA:

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/

 

[PhilDavid]

If I were you, I would take what they have offered. That $2K figure seems like a super discounted charge based on all the work involved to fix this for you.

Your car is not under warranty and I understand you are looking for a goodwill gesture but honestly that $2K fee to fix this sounds like a goodwill gesture to me and If I were you, I'd accept that and get your car fixed.