FSD = Beta squared!!

[Dr.K]

Doing my due diligence last minute (weeksactually) before receiving new Y ordered with FSD.

Tried FSD in Raven today ( not that large a price differential to new Y)

OMG. Green light in screen, car stops, repeatedly. Triangle Yield Sign, car stops ( no vehicles to yield to). Pedestrian yield sign in between to lanes, car sharply hesitates. Car stopped at red light on FSD, light turns green, car sits.

Not only do I not want to use this I don’t want to Beta test for a Release not as comfortable ( and safe) as my gen 1 autopilot in my P85D. When I was going 35 in 35 zone, the big truck behind me barely woke up, when the FSD braked suddenly at the green light, I had to accelerate to protect the bumper. He stayed ten car lengths behind after that, I guess he was shaken up..

Will cancelling FSD cancel my June delivery?. SC says FSD Y is June, got the texts, but no VIN.

 

[Tam]

Doing my due diligence last minute (weeksactually) before receiving new Y ordered with FSD.

Tried FSD in Raven today ( not that large a price differential to new Y)

OMG. Green light in screen, car stops, repeatedly. Triangle Yield Sign, car stops ( no vehicles to yield to). Pedestrian yield sign in between to lanes, car sharply hesitates. Car stopped at red light on FSD, light turns green, car sits.

Not only do I not want to use this I don’t want to Beta test for a Release not as comfortable ( and safe) as my gen 1 autopilot in my P85D. When I was going 35 in 35 zone, the big truck behind me barely woke up, when the FSD braked suddenly at the green light, I had to accelerate to protect the bumper. He stayed ten car lengths behind after that, I guess he was shaken up..

Will cancelling FSD cancel my June delivery?. SC says FSD Y is June, got the texts, but no VIN.

Some are born to avoid the burden of enduring the beta quirks but others just love to grow with the system.

Beta is not a favorite for everyone but I love it since 2017 (when it didn't even work in the city and didn't work above 35MPH on freeways) and have been with ongoing improvement with lots of enjoyment for the past alsmost 4 years.

 

[howlz]

I also removed FSD from my order over the weekend through the account page and still received a text on Monday. I don’t think it will effect the order.

 

[Dr.K]

thanks.

 

[Dr.K]

Some are born to avoid the burden of enduring the beta quirks but others just love to grow with the system.

Beta is not a favorite for everyone but I love it since 2017 (when it didn't even work in the city and didn't work above 35MPH on freeways) and have been with ongoing improvement with lots of enjoyment for the past alsmost 4 years.

 

[Dr.K]

Some are born to avoid the burden of enduring the beta quirks but others just love to grow with the system.

Beta is not a favorite for everyone but I love it since 2017 (when it didn't even work in the city and didn't work above 35MPH on freeways) and have been with ongoing improvement with lots of enjoyment for the past alsmost 4 years.

I have enjoyed autopilot since 2015. Beta FSD is a different animal. Since it stops at every light I cannot use it where there are lights. If others make the same choice, there is no neural feedback from the crowd. Since the stoplight rolled out awhile ago, and there was a recent update, how is this still a problem? Maybe because they don’t have enough data which they will not receive from people with it turned off.

 

[Zoomit]

OMG. Green light in screen, car stops, repeatedly. Triangle Yield Sign, car stops ( no vehicles to yield to). Pedestrian yield sign in between to lanes, car sharply hesitates. Car stopped at red light on FSD, light turns green, car sits.

Seems like the car was working per the release notes:

“This feature will slow the car for all detected traffic lights, including green, blinking yellow, and off lights. As your car approaches an intersection, your car will indicate the intention to slow down via a notification, slow down, and stop at the red line shown on the driving visualization.”​

Since it stops at every light I cannot use it where there are lights.

Did you follow this guidance in the release notes?

“To continue through the stop line, push down the gear selector once or briefly press the accelerator pedal to confirm that it is safe to proceed.”​

 

[Tam]

...Since the stoplight rolled out awhile ago, and there was a recent update, how is this still a problem? Maybe because they don’t have enough data which they will not receive from people with it turned off...

Correct.

Instead of hiring people to write codes so your car knows when to proceed, Tesla takes $7,000 FSD from owners who are willing to do what's called "labeling"

It's faster to hardcode an intersection but it will take a long time to do the same for all the traffic signals all over the world.

It's longer to let owners doing labeling but in the long run, it's much faster than hand-coding the whole world.

...Since it stops at every light I cannot use it where there are lights...

You do know you can volunteer or skip the job "labeling" don't you?

There's a slider to turn on or off on "Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control (Beta).

If you want smoothness, then turn that slider to grey the option out. It won't stop at any Traffic Light and Stop Sign for you.

If you want to be a "labeling" volunteer, then turn that slider on to make the option blue and it will slow down and stop at every Traffic Light and Stop Sign unless you press on the accelerator which would allow the car to continue through the intersection.

It's annoying to be a "labeler" for Traffic Light and Stop Sign at first but I like it. It automatically slows down and reminds me to at each Traffic Light and Stop Sign. I got used to its behavior and can seamlessly press on the accelerator to let the car go through a green light.

 

[AhwatukeeDad]

I am not sure I agree with your “labeler” theory.

The algorithm now is the safest.

Do the speed limit.
Stop at every intersection.
Use map data first to give you the distance warning and allow the driver to override the default stop. Cameras also?
Then use cameras when the car can see the lights and override the driver input if the light changes from green. This is the best one!

I think the data they get here is a correlation between A.I. decision and human decision at every intersection. That seems really valuable to tune the A.I. Especially at those stacked light intersections that are pretty complicated.

I both love and hate this update. I don’t have to hunt for a “pilotfish” to follow on city streets so that I stop for lights like I had to before this BUT it goes the speed limit and asks me for input at every intersection.

if it did the 5 over the limit like it does on Autosteer only I would love it more.

 

[Klau2]

Yeah, it clearly say that the traffic lights and stop signs are beta and release notes explained that it would react exactly you described. So I personally don't see a problem in that.

I had a Model S 2.5 hardware before with only autopilot and a LR AWD Y now with FSD. I am still second guessing about paying for FSD. Especially now that I can order a Performance model with 20 inch induction wheels. It would cost about the same as what I paid for mine. I just don't use FSD that often, especially now that traffic is very light for my commute. I did use autopilot function quite a lot back when traffic was bad during my commutes. My view might change once traffic is back to normal and I stuck in traffic a lot more. The recent traffic light and stop signs update does make me feel better about the FSD purchase also since it means more local driving improvement are coming.

 

[AhwatukeeDad]

Yeah, it clearly say that the traffic lights and stop signs are beta and release notes explained that it would react exactly you described. So I personally don't see a problem in that.

I had a Model S 2.5 hardware before with only autopilot and a LR AWD Y now with FSD. I am still second guessing about paying for FSD. Especially now that I can order a Performance model with 20 inch induction wheels. It would cost about the same as what I paid for mine. I just don't use FSD that often, especially now that traffic is very light for my commute. I did use autopilot function quite a lot back when traffic was bad during my commutes. My view might change once traffic is back to normal and I stuck in traffic a lot more. The recent traffic light and stop signs update does make me feel better about the FSD purchase also since it means more local driving improvement are coming.

Yeah. Performance model over FSD in my value world. You can always upgrade to FSD but can’t to Performance...

yes I know about the Speed Boost available for the 3....

 

[Dr.K]

Correct.

Instead of hiring people to write codes so your car knows when to proceed, Tesla takes $7,000 FSD from owners who are willing to do what's called "labeling"

It's faster to hardcode an intersection but it will take a long time to do the same for all the traffic signals all over the world.

It's longer to let owners doing labeling but in the long run, it's much faster than hand-coding the whole world.

----------------

You do know you can volunteer or skip the job "labeling" don't you?

There's a slider to turn on or off on "Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control (Beta).

If you want smoothness, then turn that slider to grey the option out. It won't stop at any Traffic Light and Stop Sign for you.

If you want to be a "labeling" volunteer, then turn that slider on to make the option blue and it will slow down and stop at every Traffic Light and Stop Sign unless you press on the accelerator which would allow the car to continue through the intersection.

It's annoying to be a "labeler" for Traffic Light and Stop Sign at first but I like it. It automatically slows down and reminds me to at each Traffic Light and Stop Sign. I got used to its behavior and can seamlessly press on the accelerator to let the car go through a green light.

Thank you so much. I have been driving a Tesla P85D for five years - but never the FSD. I am used to Beta testing.

I did not know about the slider AND I did not know that the release was just intended to recognize each intersection and ask for human direction (i.e. let it stop autonomously or ignore the stop light, etc.). That is a setting option that the Tesla sales people did not tell me when I returned the car, even when I said the car was 'undriveable' with FSD on my daily use roads. And my first sales person on returning my loaner and asked to drive a vehicle without FSD invoked, did not know he could turn off FSD completely (dealer commands are a few touches of the button) or turn off stoplight with the slider). Fortunately the second sales person who I recognized said no problem and turned off FSD completely. (Not being sexist - but actually the reverse - the young woman knew the vehicle better and saved the day vis a vis my order)



Indeed communication is a constant problem with Tesla right now.

As to being a Beta tester. Not only have I done that for decades (Apple, hardware and software from 1981 and Next (unix) computers for a short interval and back to Apple). Further I teach - so I observe, monitor students finding their way, advise and discuss, and finally intervene when a student is risking trouble difficult to correct - ie I do real time student Beta testing - MD student/residents/fellows).

Please give me your understanding of what happens:

Traffic light recognized by FSD- and the display icon, red or green light, (outside your line of site, i.e. on the 3/Y screen or the S/X dash screen.)

Clearly one could say, as Tesla does, FSD recognizes stop lights.
BUT the inference that the color is a trigger for the car's response? That is not valid (Human Fail to respond and it Brakes, is actually just as much Fail, Fail as it is Fail, Safe. I would be looking for passengers being tossed around crying out and for following cars to be very annoyed and even rear end.

Clearly one should be told FSD is just mapping where lights and signs are.

There are different levels of Beta - this is far from the Beta autopilot.

Now to how to make this useful or better - a series of questions for users of FSD.

Is there any other signal besides the icon that is concurrent or in advance of its display? i.e. is this the only signal to trigger a human response at this point, no chime, no flash, no vibration?

What is the delay (has to be some sort of time constant) between the icon display and the actual initiation of braking? ie. is it a fixed time constant or a variable one.

How far away from sign/ light is it initiated (a table/chart for various speeds?)

If the human anticipate the dash icon appearance, is there a way to signal to ignore?
When you respond to ignore, if you are a second late then it stops braking hard and accelerates hard?
Any flick of the (accelerator) pedal invokes the ignore command?
Is there any other way to invoke the ignore command, i.e. a flick of the Autopilot stalk?
( In the late 80's, when I taught Laser surgery, we learned quickly eye hand coordination was quicker than eye-foot)
Do you know of an official Tesla video explaining this release's parameters?

So thanks again, communication would have prevented my quite concerned posting. Do you know of an official Tesla video explaining this release's parameters?

 

[TyPope]

I have enjoyed autopilot since 2015. Beta FSD is a different animal. Since it stops at every light I cannot use it where there are lights. If others make the same choice, there is no neural feedback from the crowd. Since the stoplight rolled out awhile ago, and there was a recent update, how is this still a problem? Maybe because they don’t have enough data which they will not receive from people with it turned off.

You CAN use it where there are street lights. You just have to indicate that it is clear and the car will proceed through the light. Eventually, it will differentiate between red and green lights and will proceed through green lights. This is the first part of that. Again, all you have to do is pay attention like you will if you don't get it anyway. Then, a simple tap on the throttle or stick and it'll go right through. Sure, it isn't completely autonomous yet but I would bet it will proceed through lights by the end of this year. They have to gather a lot of data points before letting cars go through intersections without assistance. Those of us with FSD will be paving the way for those uncomfortable with tapping the throttle to proceed through the green lights.

 

[Tam]

...Traffic light recognized by FSD- and the display icon, red or green light, (outside your line of site, i.e. on the 3/Y screen or the S/X dash screen.)...Clearly one could say, as Tesla does, FSD recognizes stop lights....

Yes.

The camera can detect traffic lights fine.

The issue is who would write the codes to make those data useful such as "red" means stop and "green" means go.

As I said before, it's quite easy and fast just to write the code for 1 single intersection but it would take a long time to do that for the entire world.

On the other hand, if you let the Artificial Intelligence get the data for foot pedal reactions (called labeling) for 1 intersection, it would take many many samples and it would take a very long time, but the advantage is you don't need as many programmers and it will work all over the world as a general solution.

...BUT the inference that the color is a trigger for the car's response? That is not valid (Human Fail to respond and it Brakes, is actually just as much Fail, Fail as it is Fail, Safe. I would be looking for passengers being tossed around crying out and for following cars to be very annoyed and even rear end...

There are bad labeling as well such as people who run red lights so if all labeling are bad (all people run red light) then Artificial Intelligence could duplicate that behavior as the correct codings.

Fortunately, there are less bad labelings than good ones because people who run red lights would someday get ticketed or die and thus keep the bad labelings to a minimum.

....Clearly one should be told FSD is just mapping where lights and signs are....

Tesla imports GPS data of all the intersections into their program so the car knows exactly where the lights, stop signs are.

The accuracy of those locations are just as good as how updated the GPS data is. If the intersection has been changed due to construction then the car cannot rely on the faulty GPS at that time, it has to rely on general solution of camera vision instead.

...There are different levels of Beta - this is far from the Beta autopilot...

No argument from me here.

Driving Automation is still in its very infancy stage.

I just learn what this infant can and cannot do and babysit it with joy!

....Is there any other signal besides the icon that is concurrent or in advance of its display? i.e. is this the only signal to trigger a human response at this point, no chime, no flash, no vibration?...

I've found the more alarms the worse for users. Users learn to ignore alarms and they might also ignore real one for danger as well.

For Traffic Control option, you can turn it off so you don't have to worry about being a volunteer labeling teaching the car when to proceed through a green light.

If you like to do labeling, you can turn it on and it's pretty seamless once you know its behavior: Whenever there's traffic light, it warns you on the display something like "Traffic Controls coming up at 600 feet" and it keeps count down waiting for your foot response. If it does not sense your foot response it would automatically slow down to a stop.

Now that I know how it behaves, I just lightly press on the accelerator until the system acknowledges that it got it and I can take my foot off. I can do all that without looking at the warning message.

...What is the delay (has to be some sort of time constant) between the icon display and the actual initiation of braking? ie. is it a fixed time constant or a variable one...

How far away from sign/ light is it initiated (a table/chart for various speeds?)

If the human anticipate the dash icon appearance, is there a way to signal to ignore?....

It's about 600 feet far away that it would give you visual count down and waiting for your foot response.

So right now, if there's no foot response, the car would slow down to a complete stop in all colors from red to green.

If you want to run red light or any color light, just press on the accelerator.

...When you respond to ignore, if you are a second late then it stops braking hard and accelerates hard?...

I wouldn't describe it as "hard". It slows down to a complete stop if you don't respond to its count down from 600 feet away.

If you floor the accelerator then of course, the car would speed up real hard. Otherwise, it accelerates according to how hard you do with your foot.

...Is there any other way to invoke the ignore command, i.e. a flick of the Autopilot stalk?
( In the late 80's, when I taught Laser surgery, we learned quickly eye hand coordination was quicker than eye-foot)
Do you know of an official Tesla video explaining this release's parameters?...

Not for Traffic Controls. It only senses your foot responses.

Like you said about Tesla communications, I don't think there's any video about this beta.

Since it's beta, it can change soon (your car will stop and go on its own) so Tesla might not want to invest in something that is temporary.

...So thanks again, communication would have prevented my quite concerned posting. Do you know of an official Tesla video explaining this release's parameters?

Elon Musk did talk about free cost of labor for labeling from owners with this particular Traffic Controls version during the 2020 Q1 phone conference

https://edge.media-server.com/mmc/p/xn53wvn7


I've found Tesla's automation is very useful and very enjoyable as long as I learn what are its behaviors and how to take advantage of its strengths and weakness. That means I don't do straight pure automation all the time but a hybrid between manual and automation with different modes of TACC, Autopilot, Autopilot on Navigation...

 

[SEndicott]

While I dont have my MY yet, it will come with FSD and I will participate in the beta. What I do wish they would tweak is when the car stops at a stop line, but you/the car cannot see around a blind intersection (bush, man made object blocking, etc) and you press the accelerator to inch forward to see if it is clear. As I understand the current build, pressing the accelerator means "OK...go now" and has potential for running into a busy intersection because it doesn't know of the blind view. I wish (without having to turn creep on) that there was a way to creep forward to clear those intersections before stepping on the accelerator to "go" again.

 

[Dr.K]

Yes.

The camera can detect traffic lights fine.

The issue is who would write the codes to make those data useful such as "red" means stop and "green" means go.

As I said before, it's quite easy and fast just to write the code for 1 single intersection but it would take a long time to do that for the entire world.

On the other hand, if you let the Artificial Intelligence get the data for foot pedal reactions (called labeling) for 1 intersection, it would take many many samples and it would take a very long time, but the advantage is you don't need as many programmers and it will work all over the world as a general solution.



There are bad labeling as well such as people who run red lights so if all labeling are bad (all people run red light) then Artificial Intelligence could duplicate that behavior as the correct codings.

Fortunately, there are less bad labelings than good ones because people who run red lights would someday get ticketed or die and thus keep the bad labelings to a minimum.



Tesla imports GPS data of all the intersections into their program so the car knows exactly where the lights, stop signs are.

The accuracy of those locations are just as good as how updated the GPS data is. If the intersection has been changed due to construction then the car cannot rely on the faulty GPS at that time, it has to rely on general solution of camera vision instead.



No argument from me here.

Driving Automation is still in its very infancy stage.

I just learn what this infant can and cannot do and babysit it with joy!



I've found the more alarms the worse for users. Users learn to ignore alarms and they might also ignore real one for danger as well.

For Traffic Control option, you can turn it off so you don't have to worry about being a volunteer labeling teaching the car when to proceed through a green light.

If you like to do labeling, you can turn it on and it's pretty seamless once you know its behavior: Whenever there's traffic light, it warns you on the display something like "Traffic Controls coming up at 600 feet" and it keeps count down waiting for your foot response. If it does not sense your foot response it would automatically slow down to a stop.

Now that I know how it behaves, I just lightly press on the accelerator until the system acknowledges that it got it and I can take my foot off. I can do all that without looking at the warning message.




It's about 600 feet far away that it would give you visual count down and waiting for your foot response.

So right now, if there's no foot response, the car would slow down to a complete stop in all colors from red to green.

If you want to run red light or any color light, just press on the accelerator.



I wouldn't describe it as "hard". It slows down to a complete stop if you don't respond to its count down from 600 feet away.

If you floor the accelerator then of course, the car would speed up real hard. Otherwise, it accelerates according to how hard you do with your foot.








Not for Traffic Controls. It only senses your foot responses.

Like you said about Tesla communications, I don't think there's any video about this beta.

Since it's beta, it can change soon (your car will stop and go on its own) so Tesla might not want to invest in something that is temporary.



Elon Musk did talk about free cost of labor for labeling from owners with this particular Traffic Controls version during the 2020 Q1 phone conference

https://edge.media-server.com/mmc/p/xn53wvn7


I've found Tesla's automation is very useful and very enjoyable as long as I learn what are its behaviors and how to take advantage of its strengths and weakness. That means I don't do straight pure automation all the time but a hybrid between manual and automation with different modes of TACC, Autopilot, Autopilot on Navigation...

thank you so much.
Communication both from Tesla and to Tesla.

I use my existing autopilot all the time but switch all the time like you. There are many times humans are still smarter. But I use it a lot because I have found that a) it reacts faster in emergency deviations and b) I can react fast to disengage - ie without moving a hand I can move a finger to press the stalk end button.

I fully understand that Tesla has built a less expensive autopilot stalk control eliminating this switch.

a story: the first successful surgical laser was a CO2 laser. It was ablative ie it burned up tissue and in a time dependent way kept boring deeper in tissue. The previous technology that did this was RF cautery, and before that heat cautery. These used on off foot pedal controls. I co directed the postgrad course on the laser surgery and learned quickly that teaching eye foot coordination for the exponentially more powerful laser was a big problem. There were two solutions: a) hand control and B) preset computer controls. Both were implemented and today the surgery is done much like you use your autopilot. Human judgement is important.

I believe I can adjust to flicking the stalk down/back an inch instead of a button 5/16 of an inch. The foot is just too slow. Further I am lucky I suppose. I live on A1A in Palm Beach. My driving on autopilot has me going by at least ten signs or lights that I read for every one I must take over control ( that switch flick). FSD as the Beta is now requires ten interventions for every one I am used to. I will wait with anticipation.

P. S.: I am glad to know the release notes are clear. Like most on a test drive I get in and go after cursory sales Instruction. ( Like most consumers in a store I look and switch channels but never look at the manual. And like most men I turn on a new TV at home first and read the manual Later as I go through specific setup). Test drive? I count on the professional guidance.

Further when I read the manual I typically end up with questions like how am I alerted, what reaction time am I allowed , etc.

I can understand that saying you have two seconds to react or it stops could be bad marketing. But someone knows, Big Brother is not saying. Waiting for answers.

FSD WILL BE A GOOD THING. I will wait for FSD to get to the next stage. Thanks

 

[Tam]

...thank you so much...

You are very much welcome!

...autopilot stalk control...

It's mostly software controlled so it's possible to train Traffic Controls option with a hand rather than traditional foot.

However, with numerous complain of unintentional acceleration and recent lawsuit, I would prefer drivers to use foot rather than hand to make sure they know there's a difference between 2 pedals: one to go and one to stop and don't get mixed up!

...FSD WILL BE A GOOD THING. I will wait for FSD to get to the next stage. Thanks

We are used to quick progress but most of the time, progress is very slow.

Tesla talked that it would have self-driving soon since 2014, and again with the new hardware suite of AP2 since 2016 and again with the introduction of Hardware 3 computer to S and X in 2019 and now, it's 2020 and many are still waiting for the pre-paid Hardware 3 upgrade.

Self-driving is a goal but when will that goal be reached is another issue.

Nothing is perfect. Life is too short to get upset with the imperfections during the trials or beta periods.

In the meantime, I just enjoy what's available even in its infancy state.

 

[Picasso]

For those in the world who like to LOL as a things try to kill them over and over.....come try lane keeping on HWY 36 West out of Red Bluff. I havnt LOL at something trying to kill me this hard since I took a snowmobile deep into the trees....

 

[preilly44]

Just for an alternate view point, I love my FSD and literally use it every single time I drive. I believe it improves safety as long as you use it correctly and pay attention. I also enjoy watching the progress of FSD improve over time. I've been using AP since it first came out on my P85D (S).