FSD very far away due to regulations?

[CarlK]

My point was that protectionism has historically worked well for nations to build up their own industry/economy. It is only after they have developed an unassailable competitive advantage that these "altruists" begin to insist on forcing "free trade" upon those nations who have sought to later follow their example.

Getting back to the present then, it is entirely legitimate for nations outside the US to regulate the influx of potentially shoddy Tesla OTA updates which may affect user/road safety.

If that by coincidence causes a delay during which native competitors introduce a superior product, then by the rules of free trade it is a win-win, as Tesla must up their game to remain in it.

Thus you should be delighted to see Japan & EU & China assist Tesla to improve ... Lord knows it sorely needs all the help it can get!

Protectionizm may work for a while but in the long term it always has negative effects since it disincentivizes competiton and innovation. Remember Elon and Warran Buffet had this exchange of building moats versus to innovate? In the end Buffet seemed to concur by saying innovation will not work for candy business (BH owns See's Candy) although Elon did not even seem to agree with that. As for that China article as I said its conclusion is not accurate. China's history going back centruris or decades proved exactly closed door policy is not good for the country. And it probably will not reach the level it could be if it continues the not truly open trade policy.

Going back to autonomous cars and OTA, or EV in general, it's pretty clear all those car companies are doing what they do partly, if not largely, because of the threat from Tesla. Taking that threat away they likely would, rightfully so business-wise, slow down and concentrate more on less risky and more profitable business they are in at the moment. Fine if Tesla fails and going away because of that but consequnce for them would not be too good it it does not. I agree it will actually make Tesla an even stronger company although it not good for its mission of accelerating transition to sustainable transportation.

 

[boonedocks]

Protectionizm may work for a while but in the long term it always has negative effects since it disincentivizes competiton and innovation. Remember Elon and Warran Buffet had this exchange of building moats versus to innovate? In the end Buffet seemed to concur by saying innovation will not work for candy business (BH owns See's Candy) although Elon did not even seem to agree with that. As for that China article as I said its conclusion is not accurate. China's history going back centruris or decades proved exactly closed door policy is not good for the country. And it probably will not reach the level it could be if it continues the not truly open trade policy.

Going back to autonomous cars and OTA, or EV in general, it's pretty clear all those car companies are doing what they do partly, if not largely, because of the threat from Tesla. Taking that threat away they likely would, rightfully so business-wise, slow down and concentrate more on less risky and more profitable business they are in at the moment. Fine if Tesla fails and going away because of that but consequnce for them would not be too good it it does not. I agree it will actually make Tesla an even stronger company although it not good for its mission of accelerating transition to sustainable transportation.

Truer words never spoken. Elon hiding behind the “regulators” for protection will only work for a while before it has negative effects. Great way to put that @CarlK

 

[CarlK]

Truer words never spoken. Elon hiding behind the “regulators” for protection will only work for a while before it has negative effects. Great way to put that @CarlK

Don't try to make things up. When did Elon hide behind regulators for protection? If anything Tesla has only been accused of too aggressive in offering autonomous capabilities.

 

[boonedocks]

Don't try to make things up. When did Elon hide behind regulators for protection? If anything Tesla has only been accused of too aggressive in offering autonomous capabilities.

We’ll see. Georgia “regulators” have approved self driving cars since May 2017. Once Elon says “we are done we just can’t release anything due to regulators” (or carefully crafted words in a tweet meaning the same thing) well we will see what you have to say then.

Self driving cars in Georgia: Deal signs bill into law

 

[CarlK]

We’ll see. Georgia “regulators” have approved self driving cars since May 2017. Once Elon says “we are done we just can’t release anything due to regulators” (or carefully crafted words in a tweet meaning the same thing) well we will see what you have to say then.

Self driving cars in Georgia: Deal signs bill into law

Link of Elon's comment please. I'm sure you have quoted it out of context.

 

[boonedocks]

Link of Elon's comment please. I'm sure you have quoted it out of context.

That was a statement of what I believe we will be hearing / seeing “soon”. Don’t get me wrong, I love all things Tesla, own two, love the mission statement, love the future it holds for power systems etc etc etc. my problem is the age old “fool me once shame on you .....fool me twice shame on me...”. I am in the latter part of that statement and don’t hold some things Elon says with a block of salt anymore \i/. Realist would be the best word to describe me. Definitely not partaking from the Kool aide fount anymore.

 

[CarlK]

That was a statement of what I believe we will be hearing / seeing “soon”. Don’t get me wrong, I love all things Tesla, own two, love the mission statement, love the future it holds for power systems etc etc etc. my problem is the age old “fool me once shame on you .....fool me twice shame on me...”. I am in the latter part of that statement and don’t hold some things Elon says with a block of salt anymore \i/. Realist would be the best word to describe me. Definitely not partaking from the Kool aide fount anymore.

I know where you are coming from. To help spreading the FUD shoud not be on your agenda. It's anybody's guess when we will see the FSD but one thing for sure is Elon and the Tesla team are doing the best they could to have it out as soon as possible and be the first to market. To hide behind regulators is probably the last thing they want to do.

To lobby regulators not to approve self driving cars, like Mobileye was doing some years ago because it did not have the technology others have, that is indeed hiding behind regulators.

 

[boonedocks]

I know where you are coming from. To help spreading the FUD shoud not be on your agenda. It's anybody's guess when we will see the FSD but one thing for sure is Elon and the Tesla team are doing the best they could to have it out as soon as possible and be the first to market. To hide behind regulators is probably the last thing they want to do.

To lobby regulators not to approve self driving cars, like Mobileye was doing some years ago because it did not have the technology others have, that is indeed hiding behind regulators.

To be honest....even though I have pre-paid FSD I will be 100% happy with my current car to just have my ~100 mile a day expressway commute be L3 hands free. I won’t be using my car in the Tesla Network nor am I in a position to not be able to drive myself in other situations so L5 FSD is not something I “have” to have and don’t expect to see in this cars lifetime. I have just grown very weary and leery of all of Elon’s prognostications to the point that it’s become, sad to say, nothing more than lip service.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

The way I see it is the lack of any kind of regulatory pathway at the federal level towards introducing autonomous cars is the bottleneck.

I don't think Tesla is doing us any favors by hiding behind regulators instead of being straight forwards about the fact that there NEEDS TO BE regulations at the federal level to simplify the introduction of this technology.

Right now 29 states have enacted legislation related to autonomous vehicles so I'd have to look at 29 different pieces of legislation to figure out what was allowed, and wasn't allowed.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/transp...elf-driving-vehicles-enacted-legislation.aspx

As it stands right now Tesla can continue to march towards semi-autonomous technology, but all along the way they run the risk of regulatory push back either by the NHTSA or one of the states they sell the vehicle into. They most recently experienced regulatory push back with giant R/C car like summons thing. But, Tesla/Elon never explained who pushed back.

Instead a couple weeks ago Elon tweeted that regulatory approved Smart Summons, but he never said who approved it. Or what the approval process even was. I assume it was the NHTSA that Tesla was in talks with, but at the time the government was shutdown. So how did that happen?

What some people might not understand about the NHTSA is they tend to work with manufactures to set rules, and to determine what changes must be made. Most things tend to be voluntary where the automaker attempts to play nice with them. As an example all the autopilot nag changes/restrictions were done to appease the NHTSA.

It's a very manufacture friendly kind of arrangement. Only when there is some archaic rule that strictly defines something (like rear view mirrors or lights) that it's hard for the manufactures to get approval.

The problem with the arrangement is it's difficult to introduce anything new or ground breaking. You run the risk that you might be able to ship a product for awhile, and then run into push back where your forced to change it. That's not exactly a sustainable business model.

When it comes to autonomous cars the situation is so bad that we're going to see Germany have limited L3 driving before we do. Audi made the decision not to release it in the US market partly because of the lack of clear unified regulations on what's required for an L3.

Blader knows all about this, but omitted it because it didn't mesh with his anti-Tesla approach he always takes.

It's a little hard for me not to see regulatory as a being a bottleneck when the Germans have a working L3 vehicle (greatly limited in speed though), and they won't even release into the US.

Now I should say I'm in complete agreement with Blader in that Tesla doesn't even have the technology/software to accomplish L3 or beyond at least not this year. So I understand where he is coming from, but I don't think it's an honest assessment of the situation in the US.

 

[Bladerskb]

Mobileye is targeting 2021 for full autonomy, but the CEO says that safety drivers will still be required for a while after that. I’m guessing Mobileye might release a full self-driving product as a Level 2/advanced driver assistance product. So cars with full self-driving hardware will drive you around, but will require you to be attentive and take over if needed.

The only one targeting full autonomy (which is level 5) is Elon which he has promised will be here since end of 2017. Anyone with any kind of objectivity would know Elon statements are in bad faith. Notice he never mentions the actual real challenges in SDC right now? He mentions simplistic things as being the problem like traffic light detection or making tight right turns. Mobileye on the other hand is targeting L3 highway in 2021, L4 taxi in select cities in 2022

Now everything I listed above are actual production plans not just wishful thinking, predictions or projections like everyone else. While Mobileye does have internal developments of Level 5 including with its partners, it have never come out and said anything concrete about it. Mobileye is a straight shooter and doesn't beat around the bushes and only has real discussions about production plans. BMW might be hyping up their level 5 development with Mobileye, but you will never hear that from Amnon.

The only thing i have heard amnon say about Level 5 is

Level 5 vehicles — vehicles that can operate on any road and in any condition without a human driver — aren’t in the cards right now. The reason? Even the best systems on the market today sometimes struggle in severe weather like snowstorms and downpours, Shashua said, and Mobileye’s is no different.

“That’s why deployments are done in good weather, like in Phoenix,” he added.

It’s not that Level 5 can’t be achieved — Shashua believes it’s within the realm of possibility with current machine learning techniques like reinforcement learning. Rather, he said it’s a matter of engineering sensors that can reliably deal with snowflakes, rain droplets, fog, and other perturbatory precipitation.

“You need a two sensor-modality … [sensors] with resolutions that can work in snow, for example,” he explained. “One of the issues with current cameras is that in snow, you don’t see the edges of the road or landmarks.”

Shashua predicts that many of today’s autonomous driving challenges will be overcome within the next five to 10 years, with the advent of cheap radars and high-fidelity lidar.

 

[R.S]

The only thing i have heard amnon say about Level 5 is:

Level 5 vehicles — vehicles that can operate on any road and in any condition without a human driver — aren’t in the cards right now. The reason? Even the best systems on the market today sometimes struggle in severe weather like snowstorms and downpours, Shashua said, and Mobileye’s is no different.

“That’s why deployments are done in good weather, like in Phoenix,” he added.

It’s not that Level 5 can’t be achieved — Shashua believes it’s within the realm of possibility with current machine learning techniques like reinforcement learning. Rather, he said it’s a matter of engineering sensors that can reliably deal with snowflakes, rain droplets, fog, and other perturbatory precipitation.

“You need a two sensor-modality … [sensors] with resolutions that can work in snow, for example,” he explained. “One of the issues with current cameras is that in snow, you don’t see the edges of the road or landmarks.”

Shashua predicts that many of today’s autonomous driving challenges will be overcome within the next five to 10 years, with the advent of cheap radars and high-fidelity lidar.

Honestly, I would really prefer if everyone in the autonomous car business would talk about the topic like that. And not like this:

I don’t wanna sound overconfident, but I would be very surprised if any of the car companies exceeded Tesla in self-driving, in getting to full self-driving.

You know, I think we’ll get to full self-driving next year. As a generalized solution, I think. But that’s a ... Like, we’re on track to do that next year. So I don’t know. I don’t think anyone else is on track to do it next year.

Elon Musk Nov 2018
Elon Musk: The Recode interview

Edit: Just to explain what he means by generalized solution. In the same article before, he rips on Google for just being able to do it in one city. He wants a generalized solution that works everywhere around the world.

 

[CarlK]

Generalizd solution means you can buy a car and use it everywhere you want to go. Regardless of if and when Tesla is the only company that is working toward that direction. With hundreds of thousands HW/SW equipped cars on roads everywhere it's also the only company that has means to do that. Everyone else is only able to work on small geofence areas. That is a much easier goal and probably could eventually land them self driving ride hailing service. None of them will be like Tesla that you and I could buy one from to use as a private chauffeur driving car.

As for bad weather just shut it down in severe weather that you have trouble to handle like you would with human driven car or any forms of transportatoin.

 

[R.S]

Generalizd solution means you can buy a car and use it everywhere you want to go. Regardless of if and when Tesla is the only company that is working toward that direction. With hundreds of thousands HW/SW equipped cars on roads everywhere it's also the only company that has means to do that. Everyone else is only able to work on small geofence areas. That is a much easier goal and probably could eventually land them self driving ride hailing service. None of them will be like Tesla that you and I could buy one from to use as a private chauffeur driving car.

As for bad weather just shut it down in severe weather that you have trouble to handle like you would with human driven car or any forms of transportatoin.

And he wants to do that this year, he says. While everyone else is still struggling to do it in geofenced situations, with way more expensive equipment on their cars and some even with way more experience in ANNs, like Google. But we can clearly see how sophisticated navigate on Autopilot is, so it's basically a done deal anyways. I told people back in 2017, when Tesla did the coast to coast autonomous drive, that they are keeping their word on this.

No, I think you misunderstood what I meant to say. I wasn't discussing what Tesla is going to do vs what others are doing. I was complaining about the way Elon is talking about that topic. Instead of telling about the challenges and struggles, he just brags about how soon they are going to achieve it. His interviews have very little substance and a lot of just bragging about things he doesn't show, when it comes to FSD.

He generally tends to brag about how awesome something will be, automation and stuff like that, but that doesn't bother me. What bothers me is selling something (FSD) and then instead of informing people, just throwing out phrases and giving overly optimistic dates. Because year after year he promises something, just to not fulfill it. And it has come to the point, that everything he says about FSD has lost all its credibility to me, or even worse makes me more sceptic. And I know some people say that he really means it and just can't see all the obstacles in the way, but clearly others can see the obstacles and name them.

I still like Tesla and think their cars are fantastic, even though they might have some minor flaws sometimes. But overall, they are the best at building electric vehicles. But when it comes to self driving, they are a lot more vaporware, than anything else. And all that vapor makes it really hard to appreciate anything they have accomplished so far.

 

[CarlK]

And he wants to do that this year, he says. While everyone else is still struggling to do it in geofenced situations, with way more expensive equipment on their cars and some even with way more experience in ANNs, like Google. But we can clearly see how sophisticated navigate on Autopilot is, so it's basically a done deal anyways. I told people back in 2017, when Tesla did the coast to coast autonomous drive, that they are keeping their word on this.

No, I think you misunderstood what I meant to say. I wasn't discussing what Tesla is going to do vs what others are doing. I was complaining about the way Elon is talking about that topic. Instead of telling about the challenges and struggles, he just brags about how soon they are going to achieve it. His interviews have very little substance and a lot of just bragging about things he doesn't show, when it comes to FSD.

He generally tends to brag about how awesome something will be, automation and stuff like that, but that doesn't bother me. What bothers me is selling something (FSD) and then instead of informing people, just throwing out phrases and giving overly optimistic dates. Because year after year he promises something, just to not fulfill it. And it has come to the point, that everything he says about FSD has lost all its credibility to me, or even worse makes me more sceptic. And I know some people say that he really means it and just can't see all the obstacles in the way, but clearly others can see the obstacles and name them.

I still like Tesla and think their cars are fantastic, even though they might have some minor flaws sometimes. But overall, they are the best at building electric vehicles. But when it comes to self driving, they are a lot more vaporware, than anything else. And all that vapor makes it really hard to appreciate anything they have accomplished so far.

I was not replying to the bitching part of your post but was just commenting on what he meant by general solution. Anyway to address your concerns Elon thinks and does things different than you and I and pretty much every company out there. You can use autonomous driving as a good example to see how that works. He always say he does engineering design by the first priciple and not by anology. He will start by checking if the physics works and if there is a clear path to get there. He will then work to overcome engineering chanlleges which he knew will be there. It may be hard to predict how much time and efforts are needed to overcome engineering challenges until you are doing it but it's safe to say there is NO engineering challenge one can't eventurally overcome long as the physics is correct. The physics is indeed correct, cameras and sensors already exceeded capabilities of human eye and computers are as good as human brain and/or will keep improving. It's only the machine learning process needs to work out but here again if human could learn how to drive, we never get that capability through evolution or from our genes, there is no reason machine could not learn to do that at least as good.

You might think he is bragging but that's only because you can't see the physics and the path he does see. Don't forget among all executives of auto or even tech companies he's also the one who has the closest contact with and most understanding of AI and machine learning. Give him time he will lead us there. I'm an optimist, not to mention a physicist too, I see no reason why we could not get there.

 

[acoste]

I was not replying to the bitching part of your post but was just commenting on what he meant by general solution. Anyway to address your concerns Elon thinks and does things different than you and I and pretty much every company out there. You can use autonomous driving as a good example to see how that works. He always say he does engineering design by the first priciple and not by anology. He will start by checking if the physics works and if there is a clear path to get there. He will then work to overcome engineering chanlleges which he knew will be there. It may be hard to predict how much time and efforts are needed to overcome engineering challenges until you are doing it but it's safe to say there is NO engineering challenge one can't eventurally overcome long as the physics is correct. The physics is indeed correct, cameras and sensors already exceeded capabilities of human eye and computers are as good as human brain and/or will keep improving. It's only the machine learning process needs to work out but here again if human could learn how to drive, we never get that capability through evolution or from our genes, there is no reason machine could not learn to do that at least as good.

You might think he is bragging but that's only because you can't see the physics and the path he does see. Don't forget among all executives of auto or even tech companies he's also the one who has the closest contact with and most understanding of AI and machine learning. Give him time he will lead us there. I'm an optimist, not to mention a physicist too, I see no reason why we could not get there.

He definitely sees physics in a different way. One good example is the SolarCity's conventional look roof tiles. To have a good solar panel, maximum incoming radiation has to be absorbed. To have a conventional look, it has to reflect a good amount of light. To me these requirements sound pretty opposing. No wonder they are still not ready with it.
Cameras do not exceed the capabilities of the human eye. I have already showed this to you. Computers are very far from human brain. Some say 100 years away.
And perception with camera only is certainly not physics based decision since there are other devices that can provide more information in dark, rain, snow, fog. It is a cost based decision. his solution lacks redundancy. Or better said his redundancy is based on the driver.

 

[R.S]

I was not replying to the bitching part of your post but was just commenting on what he meant by general solution. Anyway to address your concerns Elon thinks and does things different than you and I and pretty much every company out there. You can use autonomous driving as a good example to see how that works. He always say he does engineering design by the first priciple and not by anology. He will start by checking if the physics works and if there is a clear path to get there. He will then work to overcome engineering chanlleges which he knew will be there. It may be hard to predict how much time and efforts are needed to overcome engineering challenges until you are doing it but it's safe to say there is NO engineering challenge one can't eventurally overcome long as the physics is correct. The physics is indeed correct, cameras and sensors already exceeded capabilities of human eye and computers are as good as human brain and/or will keep improving. It's only the machine learning process needs to work out but here again if human could learn how to drive, we never get that capability through evolution or from our genes, there is no reason machine could not learn to do that at least as good.

You might think he is bragging but that's only because you can't see the physics and the path he does see. Don't forget among all executives of auto or even tech companies he's also the one who has the closest contact with and most understanding of AI and machine learning. Give him time he will lead us there. I'm an optimist, not to mention a physicist too, I see no reason why we could not get there.

What physics? Sure we can get to self driving, I never doubted that. But I also know the approximated computing power of a human brain and that it’s not safe to drive, even if I‘m just tired, or slightly drunk.

I am also not sure, why you think he has any deep knowledge about AI, or at least deeper than the guys at Google.

And I can clearly see that he is just bragging, because he always has nothing to show for it, at the end of the day.

Physics is not complicated, unless you go really small, big, or fast. And none of that is needed for self driving. So please tell me what I am not seeing here. Which physical principle makes goals move back a year, every time they are due? Is there a principal that says, if something is theoretically possible, it will be possible in 3-6 months?

So like a great physicist is regularly misquoted: Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Or like George W Bush once said: “There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.“

Or as Schrödinger’s wife used to say: “No Erwin, we are not getting another cat!”

 

[Bladerskb]

Don't forget among all executives of auto or even tech companies he's also the one who has the closest contact with and most understanding of AI and machine learning.

No he doesnt, please stop spreading this. He said that human level AGI terminators will be here this year (2019). Tell me, where are the sentient robots at? Where are they?

He is as clueless as they come and actually the most dangerous ceo of our times because he has millions of fans who actually believe the stupid sh*t he says. He literally says things for hype and attention. His foremongering and lies about AI is as reckless as it can be.

 

[CarlK]

No he doesnt, please stop spreading this. He said that human level AGI terminators will be here this year (2019). Tell me, where are the sentient robots at? Where are they?

He is as clueless as they come and actually the most dangerous ceo of our times because he has millions of fans who actually believe the stupid sh*t he says. He literally says things for hype and attention. His foremongering and lies about AI is as reckless as it can be.

Elon is a founder of OpenAI which has many products with the goal of to benefit the society instead of do harms. His view on the danger of AI is shared by many great scientific minds including Steven Hawkins and Neil DeGrasse Tyson. Once he responded to Mark Zuckerberg's comment that his view is irresponsible by tweeting "I've talked to Mark about this. His understanding of the subject is limited." which actually silenced Zuckerburg.

As in my post to R.S below Elon has had some of most important contribution to the world even if he's not perfect. The last paragraph in you post that is filled with hate is nothing short of amzing.

 

[CarlK]

What physics? Sure we can get to self driving, I never doubted that. But I also know the approximated computing power of a human brain and that it’s not safe to drive, even if I‘m just tired, or slightly drunk.

I am also not sure, why you think he has any deep knowledge about AI, or at least deeper than the guys at Google.

And I can clearly see that he is just bragging, because he always has nothing to show for it, at the end of the day.

Physics is not complicated, unless you go really small, big, or fast. And none of that is needed for self driving. So please tell me what I am not seeing here. Which physical principle makes goals move back a year, every time they are due? Is there a principal that says, if something is theoretically possible, it will be possible in 3-6 months?

So like a great physicist is regularly misquoted: Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Or like George W Bush once said: “There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.“

Or as Schrödinger’s wife used to say: “No Erwin, we are not getting another cat!”

Elon used to be, and probably still is, good friends with those Google guys. In the early days before Google went public Elon used to crash in Page's apartment when he's in the area and did not have a residence. They will pull all nighters talk about everything including a lot about aritificial intellegence. These are all in Ashlee Vance's semi-official Elon Musk biography. We just don't know who has learned from whom.

If the physics is there it will work. If not it will not work. It's really very simple. Unfortunately many if not most people who could not see from that angle will always argue from the apperance or anecdotal evidences. Unfortrunately your odds will actually be very high if you bet things will not work instead if they will. That's how those blind naysayers could (temporarily) survive. Fortunately we still have a few people who are willing to take risks to do things in this environment. Here is a qoute I don't know who to attribute to: "There are achievers and then there are people whose only taste of success is to take a bite out of you.". Don't be a person like that.

Tell me one thing Elon did not deliver from his four or five successful enterprises to rockest launching and recovering to building compilling EV and infrastructures to make EV a reality. We can safely say when the chapter is over, if not now, no one in the (non-religeous) history has done this much. But again if you listen to those bashers who enjoy to take a bite out of a successful person then you can just believe we are all doomed.

 

[acoste]

Elon is a founder of OpenAI which has many products with the goal of to benefit the society instead of do harms. His view on the danger of AI is shared by many great scientific minds including Steven Hawkins and Neil DeGrasse Tyson. Once he responded to Mark Zuckerberg's comment that his view is irresponsible by tweeting "I've talked to Mark about this. His understanding of the subject is limited." which actually silenced Zuckerburg.

As in my post to R.S below he has had some of most important contribution to the world even if he's not perfect. The last paragraph in you post that is filled with hate is nothing short of amzing.

How about Rodney Brooks from MIT who says:
"
There are quite a few people out there who’ve said that AI is an existential threat: Stephen Hawking, astronomer Royal Martin Rees, who has written a book about it, and they share a common thread, in that: they don’t work in AI themselves. For those who do work in AI, we know how hard it is to get anything to actually work through product level.

Here’s the reason that people – including Elon – make this mistake. When we see a person performing a task very well, we understand the competence [involved]. And I think they apply the same model to machine learning. [But they shouldn’t.]
...
"


// founding OpenAI is great by the way