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German bill requires CCS and L2 plugs at every new fast charge point.

Even though I'm a Tesla owner and think a supercharger-like network is a must to enable electrical mobility I actually think that having ONE standardized DC-charging scheme is a good thing.
Tesla just have to suck it up and start using CCS (in europe, not NA) for both car and supercharger.
 

techmaven

Active Member
Feb 27, 2013
3,619
9,768
Even though I'm a Tesla owner and think a supercharger-like network is a must to enable electrical mobility I actually think that having ONE standardized DC-charging scheme is a good thing.
Tesla just have to suck it up and start using CCS (in europe, not NA) for both car and supercharger.

As WarpedOne mentioned, the current CCS standard is only up to Mode 3, which is limited to 200 amps. Unfortunately, the U.S. and Europe use slightly different versions of CCS (type 1 versus type 2). The IEC 62196-3 standard has a provision for Mode 4 DC charging, but the standardization effort is not complete. Which means the only international standards for DC charging currently limits the Model S to about 70 kW DC charging.

The other auto manufacturers do not have vehicles that are limited by the current standards. I believe they use this in an attempt to hold Tesla back, as they could easily have decided to standardize Mode 4 charging as part of the IEC 62196 standard in Europe, or in the U.S., they could have sorted out DC level 3 charging when the CCS Combo 1 plug standard was established. Instead, they didn't, leaving Tesla without a standard to implement in 2011/2012. Matter of fact, when SAE established the Combo standard in Oct, 2012, it came too late for Tesla on purpose and was limited to type 2 charging at under 200 amps:

EVs get boost from new SAE standard for dc fast charging - SAE International

We have seen Model S's charge at 370 amps. The fastest Combo plug that exists today (70 kW real world) is slower than the slowest Supercharger (90 kW real world).

We are unlikely to see a newer standard established until 2017 or so to coincide with model year 2018/2019 cars that might deliver > 60 kWh battery packs outside of Tesla. Of course, competitive pressure from Tesla might move the timetable up.
 

jkn

Member
Nov 29, 2013
504
331
EU
The bill (in german):

Ladesäulenverordnung (LSV) BSM e.V.

Key parts translated:


Minimum requirement for the construction of operation of fast charging points



During the construction of normal charging points which enable alternating current charging every charge point, due to interoperability, must at least be equipped with plugs or adapters of Type 2 under norm DIN EN 62196-2, december 2014 issue.

'charging points which enable alternating current charging' is irrelevant for a Tesla superchargers. I'll skip those.


During the construction of normal and fast charging points which enable direct current charging every charge point, due to interoperability, must at least be equipped with plugs or adapters of Type Combo 2 under norm DIN EN 62196-3, july 2012 issue.

'at least be equipped with plugs or adapters of Type Combo 2' -> So Tesla may use whatever plug they want, but charger must also have standard plug.

Not a big problem. I understand that supercharger already recognizes car by VIN. Set parking cost at supercharger for example 10 e/h and give each car made by Tesla an account for x hours charging time. So Tesla needs to install standard plug and a parking meter for each supercharger.
 

renim

Active Member
Apr 6, 2013
1,801
2,352
Oz
Not a big problem. I understand that supercharger already recognizes car by VIN. Set parking cost at supercharger for example 10 e/h and give each car made by Tesla an account for x hours charging time. So Tesla needs to install standard plug and a parking meter for each supercharger.

It is a major problem, economics and business model.

There are fundamental costs why public DC charging is a subsidized business, Tesla SC avoids those costs.
To add those costs to Tesla SC would kill Tesla SC from growing and adapting to the future.
 
50 kW sure is better than 130kW. One or two connectors sure is better than 6 or 8 stalls per location. Etc...

It all boils down too such stupid details when 'deciding' what standard is better. It is the implementation in practice that one must use.

And there is nothing good about CCS. *nothing*.
In what way is the number of stalls connected to the charging standard?
The good thing about CCS is that it is standardized. Tesla should have realized this and take part in the standardization process from the beginning.
There is nothing stopping Tesla using CCS plugs on the SC's and then provide higher amps than currently in the standard if the car demands it. I think the IEC 62196-3 standard allows it.
Note that I'm only talking europe here since here the MS already uses type2 (but not combo2). NA and elsewhere is a different thing.
 
It is a major problem, economics and business model.

There are fundamental costs why public DC charging is a subsidized business, Tesla SC avoids those costs.
To add those costs to Tesla SC would kill Tesla SC from growing and adapting to the future.
It's not completely disasterous for Tesla to be required to add CCS at the German superchargers. I'm sure Tesla could add 25 kW CCS in each bay, and sell access for say $5/kWh and $5/minute. This should scare away those who would use CCS, and allow Tesla to continue with their current strategy.

The issue for Tesla would be that the supercharger design changes for Germany would cost money, and complicate things needlessly. And this would all be wasted money as the CCS chargers would sit idle. The only meaningful solution is for Germany to rework the regulation, allowing Tesla to pursue their current business strategy.
 

RobStark

Well-Known Member
Jul 2, 2013
11,423
60,014
Los Angeles, USA
In what way is the number of stalls connected to the charging standard?
The good thing about CCS is that it is standardized. Tesla should have realized this and take part in the standardization process from the beginning.
There is nothing stopping Tesla using CCS plugs on the SC's and then provide higher amps than currently in the standard if the car demands it. I think the IEC 62196-3 standard allows it.
Note that I'm only talking europe here since here the MS already uses type2 (but not combo2). NA and elsewhere is a different thing.

CCS plug is capable up to 100 kWh but no CCS charger allows charging greater than 50 kWh. There is not a standard for a CCS charging station above 50 kWh. Ford was pushing for one but no one else agreed. Porsche's Mission concept charges at twice Tesla speed but VW Group did not support Ford in calling for higher CCS speeds.

A Tesla charging tower is rated at 135 kWh but each charger can do no more than 120 kWh. But Tesla is working on higher speeds as we speak. Way above the current limits of CCS.

There is a Japanese-Korean standard in CHAdeMo. And soon we will have a Chinese standard.

Tesla's Supercharger may very well become the Silicon Valley standard with Apple and Faraday Future joining.

Anyways, it seems the German Economy Minister was speaking of compromise when Elon visited the German Economics Ministry a few months ago.

Merkel's government wants to speak to the Obama Administration regarding Dieselgate. Maybe a quid pro quo can be reached where Obama does not screw over VW and Merkel does not screw over Tesla.


And by not screwed over I mean fines closer to $3k per dirty diesel and no criminal prosecution of German executives versus fines to the legal maximum of $35k per dirty diesel with criminal prosecution of German executives with international warrants issued.
 
Last edited:
In what way is the number of stalls connected to the charging standard?
The good thing about CCS is that it is standardized. Tesla should have realized this and take part in the standardization process from the beginning.
There is nothing stopping Tesla using CCS plugs on the SC's and then provide higher amps than currently in the standard if the car demands it. I think the IEC 62196-3 standard allows it.
Note that I'm only talking europe here since here the MS already uses type2 (but not combo2). NA and elsewhere is a different thing.
Tesla has sold tens of thousands of cars with the Type 2 inlet in Europe, and they shouldn't consider making those cars incompatible with existing or near-future superchargers.

Long term, it might make sense to go to the CCS plug, but this needs to be done on the cars first (where they still can use the superchargers with Type 2), and then say 10 years later start replacing the Superchargers with a new version with the CCS plug. Until then, it makes little sense that Tesla should be forced to supply charging for it's competitors at a significant loss.
 
In Finland we have so far 2 supercharger stations and both of them have also CCS and Chademo chargers so it looks like Tesla is getting ready for the EU directive. The CCS and Chademo chargers are of course not operated by Tesla. This is probably the easiest solution, just partner with DC charging operator who will install CCS there.
 
In Finland we have so far 2 supercharger stations and both of them have also CCS and Chademo chargers so it looks like Tesla is getting ready for the EU directive. The CCS and Chademo chargers are of course not operated by Tesla. This is probably the easiest solution, just partner with DC charging operator who will install CCS there.
This has been common in Norway too. Tesla usually lays out a plan for the area where they put up the superchargers, where they also have defined an area for other charging providers, should the need and interest arise. But that's not related to the German regulation. If I've understood correctly, the regulation requires CCS for each charger. It's not enough to put up CCS charging stations nearby.
 
CCS plug is capable up to 100 kWh but no CCS charger allows charging greater than 50 kWh. There is not a standard for a CCS charging station above 50 kWh. Ford was pushing for one but no one else agreed. Porsche's Mission concept charges at twice Tesla speed but VW Group did not support Ford in calling for higher CCS speeds.

A Tesla charging tower is rated at 135 kWh but each charger can do no more than 120 kWh. But Tesla is working on higher speeds as we speak. Way above the current limits of CCS.

There is a Japanese-Korean standard in CHAdeMo. And soon we will have a Chinese standard.

Tesla's Supercharger may very well become the Silicon Valley standard with Apple and Faraday Future joining.

Anyways, it seems the German Economy Minister was speaking of compromise when Elon visited the German Economics Ministry a few months ago.

Merkel's government wants to speak to the Obama Administration regarding Dieselgate. Maybe a quid pro quo can be reached where Obama does not screw over VW and Merkel does not screw over Tesla.


And by not screwed over I mean fines closer to $3k per dirty diesel and no criminal prosecution of German executives versus fines to the legal maximum of $35k per dirty diesel with criminal prosecution of German executives with international warrants issued.
Tesla uses the type 2 plug in europe already. If it can do 120+ kw, I see no reason the type 2 combo wouldn't be able to do the same.

- - - Updated - - -

Tesla has sold tens of thousands of cars with the Type 2 inlet in Europe, and they shouldn't consider making those cars incompatible with existing or near-future superchargers.

Long term, it might make sense to go to the CCS plug, but this needs to be done on the cars first (where they still can use the superchargers with Type 2), and then say 10 years later start replacing the Superchargers with a new version with the CCS plug. Until then, it makes little sense that Tesla should be forced to supply charging for it's competitors at a significant loss.
What I meant is that they should have gone with the type 2 combo (CCS) plug from the beginning in europe instead of the type 2.
Anyway, an adapter could easily solve the problem you describe.
 

stopcrazypp

Well-Known Member
Dec 8, 2007
13,482
10,018
There is nothing stopping Tesla using CCS plugs on the SC's and then provide higher amps than currently in the standard if the car demands it. I think the IEC 62196-3 standard allows it.
This is incorrect. The CCS spec allows only a maximum of 200 amps. While there is talk about 170kW charging, that is with a 850V charging voltage, which no EV uses today (it is closer to 400V). Tesla superchargers routinely pull 370 amps. So Tesla can't trivially just use the existing standard.
 
This is incorrect. The CCS spec allows only a maximum of 200 amps. While there is talk about 170kW charging, that is with a 850V charging voltage, which no EV uses today (it is closer to 400V). Tesla superchargers routinely pull 370 amps. So Tesla can't trivially just use the existing standard.


As Matbl rightly points out Tesla are using bone stock Type-2 (but high quality) in current EU cars, and just playing fast and loose with DC-Mid (of which AFAIK Tesla are the only adopters) IMO.

The _only_ reason I can see for this is Tesla own liability on both the car and the charging.

In a "spec" based world everyone is covering their ass. So with variable quality fittings/cabling/connectors and liability for incident crosses organisational boundaries, the easiest way for standard bodies to defend against this is to build fat into the standards to allow for poor workmanship /materials via excess capacity to ensure "lowest bidder to spec" still leaves some room for sub-optimal performance. Effectively requiring something "overkill" if done to exact quality levels, but sufficient in sub optimal conditions.

Inevitably this leads to a response with the financial motivated trend is to just barely meet the minimum specs. (and specifically testing regime)

A good example would be the UK 13 pin plug.

Early examples (i.e. MK's from 25 years ago), when matched with an early 13A socket could deliver sustained 13A pretty much indefinitely. As time has moved on, manufacturers drive down costs, the quality has dropped significantly, but they still meet the testing regime. They can still deliver 13A, but basically only as long as the test regime states they must. Try and run one overnight at max capacity and it will melt around the fuse carrier as over time the thickness in those holders have been penny pinched away.... (btw one fix is to solder the fuse into the holder ;) )

This is why the UMC in the UK is capped at 10A when run on a 13A socket
 

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