German bill requires CCS and L2 plugs at every new fast charge point.

[chickensevil]

They should simply force no special cards needed for access. Credit card or NFC phone payments should be all that is needed and let market decide which standard wins.

Just curious are any of the networks currently locked out unless you get their access card? My only dealings have been with either totally free and open chargers and those ran by chargepoint which if you don't have a chargepoint card you can just call the phone number to get them to activate the charger for you (not very convenient, but the option is there). Because if there are networks out there like that, that should be changed for sure... because that is totally terrible.

 

[dsm363]

Just curious are any of the networks currently locked out unless you get their access card? My only dealings have been with either totally free and open chargers and those ran by chargepoint which if you don't have a chargepoint card you can just call the phone number to get them to activate the charger for you (not very convenient, but the option is there). Because if there are networks out there like that, that should be changed for sure... because that is totally terrible.

I guess you don't need a card for most but the process isn't seamless. What if your phone is out of juice? If you had to make a phone call before you pumped gas people would be upset.

 

[chickensevil]

I guess you don't need a card for most but the process isn't seamless. What if your phone is out of juice? If you had to make a phone call before you pumped gas people would be upset.

That's true. Would be nice to have direct payment on the system itself. I assume the reason they don't is cost. It is easier to send out your chargepoint information and process your account that way than to provide direct POS systems spread all around. This is largely why Tesla didn't even play that game and just made everyone pay for the system upfront.

 

[dogphlap]

OK.
If EVs are to replace ICE vehicles they have to be a viable alternative.
So far Tesla are the only manufacturer of a pure EV with a >200 mile/300km range and a high power global charging network (i.e. a viable alternative to gasoline vehicles).
They have created this high power charging network at the companies expense i.e. Tesla's customers expense.
What this legislation will do is remove any incentive for Tesla (or any other manufacturer) to add to the network since those sites will be overwhelmed with vehicles from manufacturers less public spirited. That is no problem if you are happy to continue with hybrid or gasoline/diesel cars otherwise you are screwed.
The Model 3 should be available around 2018 but the chance of being able to reliably charge it away from home will be dramatically reduced within Germany if this law comes to pass. They would have to install extra chargers and spaces and maybe instigate some kind of non-discriminatory access (whatever that actually means) and maybe payment method.
Perhaps all house owners should be compelled to leave their front doors open so anyone passing by could make use of their house for the night, that would be good for everyone right (but it might reduce the number of prospective home-owners don't you think) ?
If you invest the time, the money and the effort to create the best charging network there is why should you have to give away a sales advantage to those who have just sat on there hands.

 

[bwa]

Tesla can take more money as a one time fee for new car sales, bundled with the Tesla. At say 5000. This makes it possible to take 5000 from non Tesla owners in "non-discriminatory access" ;-)

My interpretation of "non-discriminatory access" is that the cost of using a Supercharger is owning a US$150,000.00 car, so, say, a BMW owner could just pay Tesla $150,000 and get access. If they wanted to deduct the cost of not actually getting a car delivered, they could pay the difference between BMW's actual manufacturing cost and a brand new Tesla, to Tesla. If BMW doesn't want to make public the actual and completely verifiable manufacturing cost of their vehicles (complete with CAD drawings, materials supply chains, all business intelligence for costs, etc.), then there is no way for Tesla to set a price for those people except at the $150,000 mark. That's non-discriminatory. To charge only $2,500 to non-Tesla cars would be discriminatory against Tesla cars, and would be illegal (from my light reading of that law). Tesla would be forbidden to offer BMW cars charges for under ~$150,000 (less verifiable manufacturing cost), since that would be discriminatory.

Edit: Oh wait. So there are more cost considerations. Tesla's profit, Tesla's cashflow, the cashflow of Tesla's suppliers, the profits of Tesla's suppliers, all have to be paid for, regardless of what the manufacturing cost of the BMW is. This is actually more money than the difference between sales price of Tesla and manufacturing cost of Tesla. So I think actually the cost has to be set by Tesla based upon what the profit+cash flow+supplier health cost is to Tesla to be able to support the supercharger network. Also, due to increased use by more vehicles, there is a density geometric progression in land cost that Tesla would have to pay to enlarge their network, that would of course be passed on to the cost of the additional users of the network.

This is all very weird. What the hell is Germany thinking?

 

[Model 3]

This is all very weird. What the hell is Germany thinking?

They are thinking: "Hell, Tesla is building a great charging network for it's cars! Let's find a way to make them pay for a charging network for ours car too...."

 

[arg]

Just curious are any of the networks currently locked out unless you get their access card? My only dealings have been with either totally free and open chargers and those ran by chargepoint which if you don't have a chargepoint card you can just call the phone number to get them to activate the charger for you (not very convenient, but the option is there). Because if there are networks out there like that, that should be changed for sure... because that is totally terrible.

Can't speak for Germany, but it's worse than that here in the UK. Almost all public points (especially those installed with government money!) require membership of some scheme - even ones where the site owner is offering the electricity for free and hence there's no fee for charging, you just have to get the point unlocked. Default way of unlocking is with one of several RFID access cards; many of the networks also offer remote activation by phone or mobile app, but this is unreliable (requires the post to be online) and in some cases requires you to open an account and load (typically) £10 via a credit card before you can then activate the app to access your 'free' charging!

More details here: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/35962-Charge-cards?p=846010&viewfull=1#post846010

 

[kurgan]

They are thinking: "Hell, Tesla is building a great charging network for it's cars! Let's find a way to make them pay for a charging network for ours car too...."

Couldnt this be a nice opportunity for tesla for 2nd income stream?

- - - Updated - - -

also.. I didnt read the whole thing, but the SUC's are a 'private' chargning network, I dont think people that install chargers at home are required to have these, although in europe I think Type 2 is actually the standard, even for tesla? (when not charging on SUC)

 

[ScepticMatt]

TTF user "EVduck" is maintaining written correspondence with affiliates of the Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs and Energy who are responsible for the draft bill.
They pledged that the definition of the bill will be changed in a way that private chargers (e.g. chargers at private company parking spaces) are now excluded.
He is still working on other points.

Beitrag von EVduck » 17. Feb 2015, 12:08
Nach regem Schriftverkehr mit mehreren Abgeordneten und deren Mitarbeitern habe ich jetzt die Zusage des BMWi, dass zumindest private Ladepunkte, genauer deren Definition so angepasst wird, dass private (z.B. Firmenladepunkte für Betriebsangehörige und Firmanwagen) nicht mehr unter die Verordnung fallen. An den anderen Punkten bin ich noch dran.

Plus there is a new handelsblatt article where they interviewed importers.
"unbelievably discriminating", according to the importer association. "Taxpayers are taken for a ride", said the Head of Nissan Germany.

Stecker-Chaos und Ladestationen-Tohuwabohu: Importeure sind empört - Nachrichten - Auto - Handelsblatt

 

[maekuz]

Re: Proposed German Bill on charging standards

I am an in-house lawyer for a german energy provider and i did review the draft of the bill. The Tesla SC network is not publicly accessible because the SC network is a closed system which is intended only for charging the Model S. No electricity is sold or otherwise provided for third parties - which is the important part. The SC network would therefore not fall under the scope of that proposed bill.

Tesla Germany is well aware of the public discussion regarding that draft and i know that Tesla is in contact with German Ministry for Economic Affairs and Energy.

 

[dogphlap]

Thank you for your input maekuz.
You have commented on two aspects that I was keen to know more about.
I hope you continue to inform this thread as the matter develops.

 

[chickensevil]

Re: Proposed German Bill on charging standards

I am an in-house lawyer for a german energy provider and i did review the draft of the bill. The Tesla SC network is not publicly accessible because the SC network is a closed system which is intended only for charging the Model S. No electricity is sold or otherwise provided for third parties - which is the important part. The SC network would therefore not fall under the scope of that proposed bill.

Tesla Germany is well aware of the public discussion regarding that draft and i know that Tesla is in contact with German Ministry for Economic Affairs and Energy.

I'm sorry, I think I had forgot to mention in this thread previously that while I was in communication with Jerome about another issue I brought this up to him and all he said to me was that they were aware of this potential bill and they were looking into it. Thought this would help coobberate your information about Tesla being in contact regarding this.

If they aren't in the scope of the current bill then this is indeed good news! That is, until the network gets opened up to other manufacturers... then it might become an issue.

 

[renim]

Stecker-Chaos und Ladestationen-Tohuwabohu: Importeure sind empört - Nachrichten - Auto - Handelsblatt

'Diesmal haben Besitzer von E-Autos der Edelmarke Tesla das Nachsehen. Die Schnell-Ladestationen („Supercharger“), die der kalifornische Hersteller auch entlang deutscher Autobahnen aufbaut, sind bislang nicht mit dem europäischen System kompatibel. Künftig müssen aber neue, öffentlich zugängliche Tesla-Ladesäulen zusätzlich nach dem europäischen Ladesystem funktionieren können. '

seems pretty clear, Future Tesla German superchargers will be required to provide EU spec - CCS Combo

 

[RobStark]

I would go with the word of a German lawyer.

 

[evme]

They should simply force no special cards needed for access. Credit card or NFC phone payments should be all that is needed and let market decide which standard wins.

Why credit cards? There is no need for them in modern day society. You can either have NFC on the phone or in the car. Preferably in the car, you just plug in the charger and it handles the billing when you plug it in.

 

[dsm363]

Why credit cards? There is no need for them in modern day society. You can either have NFC on the phone or in the car. Preferably in the car, you just plug in the charger and it handles the billing when you plug it in.

That's why I included both. Not everyone in the world has a smart phone capable of NFC payments but. Many more have a credit or debit card.

That would be even better if the car just talked with the charging station and took care of it.

 

[ScepticMatt]

But there is a different hearing tomorrow, enabling non-cash incentives for plug-in electric and hydrogen cars.
i.e. EV stickers for special parking space and road access rules for EVs (to be clarified later)

This incentive bill was passed by the commerce and infrastructure committee today, with some changes to include trucks up to 12 metric tonnes.
The green party introduced a motion to include cash incentives for new EV buyers.
The Bundestag will now have the final vote on the incentive bill, including the green party motion.
No idea if there is anything new about the "CCS bill"

Deutscher Bundestag - Privilegen für Elektrofahrzeuge

-Matt

 

[renim]

I would go with the word of a German lawyer.

I don't think German electricity lawyers certify much in the way publicly accessible, electrically powered, traffic 'furniture' either.
(Street Furniture: “Street” or “roadside furniture” is a term that covers a wide range ofitems found in the public domain. Structures which fall into this category include suchthings as bus shelters, seating, bollards, lightings poles, bins, phone boxes, post boxes,signs and traffic signals. Street furniture can be categorized further as permanent ortemporary and fixed or unfixed.)

Those whose signature permits road network infrastructure is the person who permits the construction of charging stalls in Germany going forward. A lawyer may advise for its use, but its an engineer or a planner who signs the papers for construction approval.

 

[RobStark]

I don't think German electricity lawyers certify much in the way publicly accessible, electrically powered, traffic 'furniture' either.
(Street Furniture: “Street” or “roadside furniture” is a term that covers a wide range ofitems found in the public domain. Structures which fall into this category include suchthings as bus shelters, seating, bollards, lightings poles, bins, phone boxes, post boxes,signs and traffic signals. Street furniture can be categorized further as permanent ortemporary and fixed or unfixed.)

Those whose signature permits road network infrastructure is the person who permits the construction of charging stalls in Germany going forward. A lawyer may advise for its use, but its an engineer or a planner who signs the papers for construction approval.

Again, I will take the word of a German lawyer regarding a proposed German law vs random person giving an opinion.

 

[Gerardf]

I did not read every post in the thread, however I was wondering about this line :

"Beim Aufbau von Schnellladepunkten, an denen das Wechselstromladen möglich ist, muss aus Gründen der Interoperabilität jeder Ladepunkt mindestens mit Kupplungen des Typs 2 nach der Norm DIN EN 62196-2, Ausgabe Dezember 2014, ausgerüstet werden."

And as translated in the first post..

"During the construction of normal and fast charging points which enable direct current charging every charge point, due to interoperability, must at least be equipped with plugs or adapters of Type Combo 2 under norm DIN EN 62196-3, july 2012 issue."


What if Tesla would make available a simple adapter DC-MID (Tesla style with longer pin's) to Combo-2 at each future SuperCharger stall. That would make it possible for any other car to physically connect to a standard Supercharger. Such an adapter would be quite simple, just some one-on-one connections, no electronics needed.

Of course no other car than a Tesla can charge at SuperChargers with just such an adapter, as authentication is required and only cars that have paid the SuperCharger upfront fee can pass that authentication.
I have not read the full bill, but I would think it is up to Tesla how it wants to bill for the use of the (Super-) chargers.

And, every car manufacturer is already invited by Tesla to set up such pre-paid agreement with Tesla, under some very reasonable conditions. (Minimum charge rate capability, prepaid fee for the electricity and use of a SuperCharger).

I have not read the full proposed bill, however I feel that such adapter would make Tesla compliant with the new bill, without having to switch connectors on the cars or the SuperChargers.

It would actually be great if one or more other car brands would indeed set up a deal with Tesla and enable SuperCharging capabilities using these adapters, as long as Tesla invests that income in more SuperChargers. ( Which I am sure Tesla would do).