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Germany will require electric vehicle charging at every gas station

SammichLover

Banned
Dec 8, 2018
2,618
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Cost and simplicity.

People don't take the train. They:
(1) travel from home to the train station
(2) take the train (or trains)
(3) from the train station to their destination
(4) travel in the area of their destination
(5) (3) to (1) in reverse.

Once you already have a car, it changes travel decisions dramatically, _especially_ for groups like families.
First off, the average persons per household continues to fall, and Europe overall is even lower than North America. Germany is very low on a homes having any children age 15 and down, sub 20% of them do. That is in the range of 1/2 the number of the US.

But on all those items you're supposing, right? What's the actual numbers? Why not local rentals?
 

SammichLover

Banned
Dec 8, 2018
2,618
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When did you last take a long distance train? At peak demand times, e.g. Friday afternoons, they are packed as it is. There simply isn't much excess capacity left in the system.
I live in North America. I've never ridden a long distance train. ;)

Wait, maybe I did once on a business trip to Rotterdam but I'm not sure Rotterdam to Amsterdam and back counts is "long distance"? But Newark airport into NYC definitely doesn't, which is about the longest train ride I've taken in the US. ;) I used to ride the light rail transit in Calgary a fair amount, but that's only intracity so maybe 20 miles end-to-end, it is only about 56km total split among 4 legs leading out from downtown.

So this "mass holidays" people don't time shift on them at all? When I go on an extended vacation using public transit (plane in this case) our family normally shifts by a day one way or the other. Sizable price difference for that. Is there incentive for that on the trains?

Trying to understand how these "mass vacations" work.
 

Just a Reader

Member
Mar 10, 2014
273
102
Frankfurt, Germany
.. Germany is very low on a homes having any children age 15 and down, sub 20% of them do. That is in the range of 1/2 the number of the US.
..


You seem to ignore that Germany is Europe's no. 1 transit country (France perhaps coming close). All of Scandinavia have to cross through Germany to get basically anywhere. The low countries pass through Germany to get to the Alps etc.. Plenty of British doing the same.
It isn't just German requirements you have to look at.

With all this we haven't even started to look at the heavy trucks yet.
 

SammichLover

Banned
Dec 8, 2018
2,618
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You seem to ignore that Germany is Europe's no. 1 transit country (France perhaps coming close). All of Scandinavia have to cross through Germany to get basically anywhere. The low countries pass through Germany to get to the Alps etc.. Plenty of British doing the same.
It isn't just German requirements you have to look at.

With all this we haven't even started to look at the heavy trucks yet.
Germany is on the lower end but nearly all of Europe is like that. Smaller families than NA, and like NA shrinking.
 

Just a Reader

Member
Mar 10, 2014
273
102
Frankfurt, Germany
Trying to understand how these "mass vacations" work.

At peak season almost all of the accommodation is rolled over on the Saturdays. The guests who are leaving leave in the morning and the new guests arrive in the afternoon. it's very difficult to deviate from that.
This may change in the future but currently this is the way it is.

Germans may not procreate in the numbers Americans do but Germany crams 83 million people into a country slightly smaller than Montana.
 
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SammichLover

Banned
Dec 8, 2018
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Yup
At peak season almost all of the accommodation is rolled over on the Saturdays. The guests who are leaving leave in the morning and the new guests arrive in the afternoon. it's very difficult to deviate from that.
This may change in the future but currently this is the way it is.
A lot of midterm vacation rentals are like that in NA, too, but it is changing with more flexible blocks. Clear opportunity for easing "peak" issues.
Germans may not procreate in the numbers Americans do but Germany crams 83 million people into a country slightly smaller than Montana.
That was in reply to ItsNotAboutTheMoney referring to families being part of the driving force toward vehicle over train.

Their post came off as guesses I'd make off the cuff, too, rather than having harder numbers to work with.
 

one2many

Member
Aug 16, 2019
572
744
germany
OK my point was that when we have a high % of EV's this will
be an issue. All countries and sections of Germany try to stagger
vacations due to the massive traffic issues. If schools are out on Friday,
Saturday and Sunday are packed. I have seen 50 mile traffic jams over three lanes.
People with kids tend to try to rent rooms with a kitchen. So if you need to haul
clothes, food and other stuff for 2 weeks, trains will not work.

25 million in a year
 
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SammichLover

Banned
Dec 8, 2018
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So if you need to haul
clothes, food and other stuff for 2 weeks, trains will not work.
Why hauling food? I don’t even do that in a vehicle.

Trains don’t allow a checked luggage bag? Or regular size suitcase as “carry on”? Serious question, given my lack of experience in long distance trains. I got the impression from US people that have used trains for multiple country tour of Europe that 2 week worthy luggage was ok?
I have seen 50 mile traffic jams over three lanes.

Barring freezing temps, EVs shrink “re-fueling” gap in situations like that.
 

one2many

Member
Aug 16, 2019
572
744
germany
Trains do not go point to point, meaning you may need several trains
to get close to where you want to go. The connections can be just a few minutes or hours.
It is also very easy to miss connections of have a train delayed.
If I had two kids, 6 bags, and had to sit in a series of trains for 12 hours, I would
stay home. At the end you may need to rent a car to get to that mountain resort.
 

SammichLover

Banned
Dec 8, 2018
2,618
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Yup
If I had two kids, 6 bags, and had to sit in a series of trains for 12 hours, I would
stay home.
But you're up for a 50 mile diesel particulate choked traffic jam?

LOL

P.S. So there's not checking of bags and automated transfer of the luggage for the trains? Not that I usually trust planes with that, usually try get everything into carry-on. The rest sounds like regular airplane trip issues.
 

SSonnentag

Rocket Scientist
Apr 11, 2017
1,717
2,177
Arizona
Our vacations normally involve trips of 800 to 3000 miles (1287 to 4828 km), and there are no passenger trains anywhere near the areas we leave from or go to. A seat on a passenger train in the US cost more than a 1st class airline ticket, so trains aren't an option due to several factors.

So with my Tesla Model S, we can take the whole family to visit family over 1500 miles (2414 km) away for the cost of 2 nights hotel room, roughly $240 (212 Euros).
 

SammichLover

Banned
Dec 8, 2018
2,618
1,542
Yup
Our vacations normally involve trips of 800 to 3000 miles (1287 to 4828 km), and there are no passenger trains anywhere near the areas we leave from or go to. A seat on a passenger train in the US cost more than a 1st class airline ticket, so trains aren't an option due to several factors.

So with my Tesla Model S, we can take the whole family to visit family over 1500 miles (2414 km) away for the cost of 2 nights hotel room, roughly $240 (212 Euros).
Sure, this was talking about Europe. The US uses planes, and to a dregree buses, instead

Planes are a poor substitute for a Tesla unless you are traveling cross continent to a single major destination and very squeezed for time.
 

SSonnentag

Rocket Scientist
Apr 11, 2017
1,717
2,177
Arizona
Can’t afford a plane in the US but have a Tesla? The side local trips are more but the major artery prices are very cheap.

$6000-$7000 for the family to fly vs $240 to drive. Yeah, flying is not affordable. Driving a Tesla is affordable, even including the purchase price, as long as you keep it several years.

Plus, when you drive you have the additional benefit of NOT being treated like a criminal by the farce known as the TSA.
 

SammichLover

Banned
Dec 8, 2018
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$6000-$7000 for the family to fly
??? WTF are you flying? How exactly are you shopping for tickets? Business class?

We've flown 5 of us from Houston to Hawaii , return, for about 1/2 that.

It is highly dependent on endpoints, but for single point destinations if you can't handle the pricing out there for major backbone routes you very likely aren't in the Tesla market to start with.
 
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SSonnentag

Rocket Scientist
Apr 11, 2017
1,717
2,177
Arizona
??? WTF are you flying? How exactly are you shopping for tickets? Business class?

We've flown 5 of us from Houston to Hawaii , return, for about 1/2 that.

It is highly dependent on endpoints, but for single point destinations if you can't handle the pricing out there for major backbone routes you very likely aren't in the Tesla market to start with.


I quickly ran the numbers for this year's vacation, June 28-July 5, 8 days.
I chose the cheapest available airline and tickets for 2 adults, 3 kids.
This is from one international airport to another, with only one stop.

Airfare $ 3,641.00
Bags $ 380.00
Seat Choice $ 200.00
Dog Sitter $ 240.00
Car Rental $ 765.00
Gas (500 mi) $ 60.00
Airport Parking $ 144.00
TOTAL $ 5,430.00

So I overestimated a little, but still, compared to $240 worth of hotels and the freedom of driving our own car and setting our own pace, it's a no brainer to travel by car.
 

SammichLover

Banned
Dec 8, 2018
2,618
1,542
Yup
This is from one international airport to another, with only one stop.

Airfare $ 3,641.00
I quickly ran the numbers for this year's vacation, June 28-July 5, 8 days.
I chose the cheapest available airline and tickets for 2 adults, 3 kids.
This is from one international airport to another, with only one stop.

Airfare $ 3,641.00
Huh, came off rectal extracted $7000 claim quickly. :p So now which airport and where are you headed?

Again, in the US if you're on core routes airfare is relatively cheap. I never said anything about cost comparing with driving the Tesla, because that wasn't your claim. When someone can fly a seat $500 roundtrip from one side of the country to the other planes are economically accessible to anyone that's also going to throw up a week's or more time and potentially drop multiples of that on accommodations and meals and who knows what for "things to do" when there. It is even accessible to whole lot of people that are doing it without those overheads.

P.S. You're driving with 2 adults, 3 kids, + the dog? ROFL
 
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