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Germany will require electric vehicle charging at every gas station

ElectricLee

Member
Mar 2, 2019
475
502
San Jose
While having them on every current gas station is not really needed, I would like it only as far as having people convert to EV's for the simple fact of, "Every current gas station has an EV Charger." So for the short term, they will not say, where do I charge?.... etc. etc...
 

qdeathstar

Active Member
May 17, 2019
2,421
2,037
VB
Agreed, but it is better than nothing. Again my point is if you just need a little bump to get you to the next supercharger. While a 4hr stop is not ideal, it is better than nothing at all. There are a lot of secluded places where superchargers are not available, but there are likely plenty of gas stations.

I feel like you are missing my point. If it costs a million dollars to add 500 level two chargers or 50 dc fast chargers, the better option is the 50 dc fast chargers....
 
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one2many

Member
Aug 16, 2019
572
744
germany
Most of the gas stations near the autobahn will go fast charging as well gas stations
near shopping centers. There are a ton of stations that L2 makes more sense, mainly
for workers at the stations. In Dallas it used to take an hour to get to a beer store so
fast charging in that case would make more sense.
 

one2many

Member
Aug 16, 2019
572
744
germany
Last time I checked it is about 5-15k for a fast charger. Of course it depends on
the model and the net connection. I assume the install is in the 5K range. Most L2
are under 1k. To build a gas station I have no clue.
 

SlimJim

Member
Jul 25, 2019
868
659
USA
I will still take my ICE for longer trips. So much easier for me and my family. I refuse to let charging stations dictate my choice of food.
 

SammichLover

Banned
Dec 8, 2018
2,618
1,542
Yup
For nothing more than a fully automated card-key, my understanding from my father (who was a co-op board member/chair during a couple of these installs) maybe $400,000 for the tanks + 4 pump heads. Extrapolating from about 15 year old prices. The land and such extra, and of course if you want to have a human in a store for it that's an extra.

That'd be about equivalent to a roughly 8 stall SC for throughput, maybe a bit better, which costs about $20K * 8 = $160K.

EDIT: I believe Electrify America per stall costs were coming in higher that Tesla's. More like $40K each, which would make it even closer to a comparable fueling instal. Tesla is probably saving a lot with V2 design by using the split-pair configuration. I haven't heard about their numbers with V3?

So pretty similar costs and not much difference in footprint size, too, but a different shape for sure. You can save some hassle and cost putting the tanks above ground, but then you need cheaper land.
 
Last edited:
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smartypnz

Supporting Member
Jan 23, 2013
2,040
2,175
Monterey Peninsula
Some here will recall when Costco installed L2 chargers at quite a few locations. They were rarely used - several reasons... few EV's and probably time spent at Costco didn't result in that much of a charge. Costco eventually removed most if not all.

Can't see much of an advantage at 'gas' stations unless they at least have an L3 Rate or hopefully by implementation time there is an even faster method of charging.

I would be surprised if Oil companies are not seriously studying the possibility of conversion to electric dominating gas usage.
 

toolman335

Member
Oct 3, 2019
842
593
Rochester
We aren't Europe. Gas stations could be incentivized in rural areas to have L2 charging, but why would it make sense to have a gas station that is next to a supercharger install L2 stations? No one would use it. You're better off waiting for the SC.
We'd be much better off mandating that hotels and parking garages supply L2 chargers than gas stations.
They still say that 80% of people charge at home/work. What exactly is the problem here?
 
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MXLRplus

Active Member
Mar 11, 2020
1,589
2,430
Eastvale, CA
Some here will recall when Costco installed L2 chargers at quite a few locations. They were rarely used - several reasons... few EV's and probably time spent at Costco didn't result in that much of a charge. Costco eventually removed most if not all.

Can't see much of an advantage at 'gas' stations unless they at least have an L3 Rate or hopefully by implementation time there is an even faster method of charging.

I would be surprised if Oil companies are not seriously studying the possibility of conversion to electric dominating gas usage.

When did they remove them? I used one last summer. There was a waiting line for it (Goleta, CA)
 

one2many

Member
Aug 16, 2019
572
744
germany
Again this is targeted mainly to autoban (freeway) gas stations in the northern
part of Germany that have been rather slow to build fast chargers. There are also
a lot of gas stations just off the autobahn that would help as well. People work at
gas stations so having charging will help them. Not everyone has a tesla and
with a Leaf for example you may need the options, I did.
They are working on below ground parking garages as well. They will at some
point ban ICE cars in that dangerous environment. I see lots of Hotels
with L2 now as well.
 

EmOne

Member
Mar 28, 2020
214
154
Chicago
I'm thinking the "market" can do a lot better with this than some mopes spending everyone's money on poorly considered mandates.
 

Webeevdrivers

Active Member
Jan 2, 2017
2,248
3,956
Canada
How about installing charging at all US rest areas?

We are seeing more Crown (goverment) provincial DCFC Chademo/ccs stations installed in main highway rest areas. Some are 100 kw, many are 50 Kw and some on isolated routes with only single phase power are seeing 25 KW stations installed in BC. Even 25 Kw makes a difference if you are there for 1/2 hour eating your picnic lunch on route. Not so important with our model 3 but with the leaf it’s a life saver.
 

Just a Reader

Member
Mar 10, 2014
273
102
Frankfurt, Germany
Plenty of people seem to assume that conditions in the US more or less apply to other countries as well. However, in densely packed European cities a huge number of potential customers live in apartment houses that were built at some point between the 1870s and the post WWII building boom to the 1960s. Many of these buildings don't have any dedicated parking at all and most certainly have nothing that could be quickly adapted for charging a large number of cars at reasonable costs. At the same time there are still many filling stations close to or within residential areas. Often they don't even operate 24/7. Having a couple of cars charging there overnight might be an option to generate additional business.
Until the charging situation is solved for the people who are living in such apartment houses BEVs will simply not be able to penetrate a significant chunk of the market.
 

SammichLover

Banned
Dec 8, 2018
2,618
1,542
Yup
Plenty of people seem to assume that conditions in the US more or less apply to other countries as well. However, in densely packed European cities a huge number of potential customers live in apartment houses that were built at some point between the 1870s and the post WWII building boom to the 1960s. Many of these buildings don't have any dedicated parking at all and most certainly have nothing that could be quickly adapted for charging a large number of cars at reasonable costs. At the same time there are still many filling stations close to or within residential areas. Often they don't even operate 24/7. Having a couple of cars charging there overnight might be an option to generate additional business.
Until the charging situation is solved for the people who are living in such apartment houses BEVs will simply not be able to penetrate a significant chunk of the market.
The scale of that is a pittance, pissing in the wind if you have actual meaningful conversion to BEVs.

Compare to something like an on-street L2 charging point program.
 

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
10,386
7,512
Maine
The biggest problem that Europe faces is the mass vacations.
During vacation times you can have many 1000's of cars going from
Holland to Italy or Spain. If they all need to charge at the same time
it would take a football field of chargers to do this. The same goes
for German vacation time.

Let's do math!
Assume:
- 150km/h (~93mph)
- 0.25kWh/km (somewhere between efficient vehicles
- 100kW charging

100kW / 0.25 kWh/km = 400km/h

Then you would need:
150km/h-vehicle / 400km/h/charger = 3/8 chargers/vehicle

If you have an exit every 10km on average and chargers at every exit, then you would have
150km/h / 10km/exit /= 15exits/h
Then, worst case (all vehicle energy has to come from on-the-road charging):
3/8 chargers/vehicle / 15 exit/h = 1/40 (chargers/exit)/(vehicle/h)

Then for every 1,000 vehicles/h, with exits every 10 km, you would need 25 chargers/exit.
Do you have any real numbers on long-distance travel density? (It's not just the density on the roads that matters, but the vehicles traveling long enough distances to require the chargers.)

How do you meet the needs?
1) Long-range EVs allow home and destination charging to remove more charging kilometers from the DCFC network.
2) Efficient EVs that reduce charging demand.
3) High charging power to reduce the number of chargers (albeit not reducing the total charging power required).
4) DCFC Charging stations with large numbers of stalls.
5) Destination (including overnight) charging in popular vacation spots.
 
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SammichLover

Banned
Dec 8, 2018
2,618
1,542
Yup
How do you meet the needs?
1) Long-range EVs allow home and destination charging to remove more charging kilometers from the DCFC network.
2) Efficient EVs that reduce charging demand.
3) High charging power to reduce the number of chargers (albeit not reducing the total charging power required).
4) DCFC Charging stations with large numbers of stalls.
5) Destination (including overnight) charging in popular vacation spots.
6) Consider why these vacationers aren't taking the train instead, and what can be done to tip the balance to that choice for more people.
 

ItsNotAboutTheMoney

Well-Known Member
Jul 12, 2012
10,386
7,512
Maine
6) Consider why these vacationers aren't taking the train instead, and what can be done to tip the balance to that choice for more people.

Cost and simplicity.

People don't take the train. They:
(1) travel from home to the train station
(2) take the train (or trains)
(3) from the train station to their destination
(4) travel in the area of their destination
(5) (3) to (1) in reverse.

Once you already have a car, it changes travel decisions dramatically, _especially_ for groups like families.
 

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