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GM CEO Mary Barra on Tesla: 'We just want a level playing field'

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So, I hear this argument a lot, but I think it's vastly overstated. Just to take an example, it's great that the Model S doesn't need oil changes or spark plugs...but it still requires an annual service that costs more than I'll spend this year servicing either of my other two ICE cars.

Incorrect. Tesla and Elon have stated that the annual Model as service is NOT required for the warranty to be valid.

And the electric household appliances I buy rarely if ever need "service" before I decide to replace them, which may be many years.

Electronic digital products are becoming more and more reliable over time. Yes, sometimes they break and can't be fixed. But most of the time they do not.
 
I have no idea whether EVs will really pan out to need less service over their lives. I hope they do.

I believe they will. IIUC, the Tesla drivetrain has all of six moving parts, versus a gazillion for an ICE. And in every other case -- A/C, main screens, entertainment, etc. -- both the ICE and the EV will need service. So if an EV needs similar service to an ICE in most areas, but far less in the drivetrain area, overall the EV should have markedly less maintenance required. Furthermore, most maintenance on our ICE's was drivetrain-related: oil, belts, plugs, whatever. Things can break in any part of the car, but I'd say the overall maintenance needs will be significantly reduced.
 
I believe they will. IIUC, the Tesla drivetrain has all of six moving parts, versus a gazillion for an ICE. And in every other case -- A/C, main screens, entertainment, etc. -- both the ICE and the EV will need service. So if an EV needs similar service to an ICE in most areas, but far less in the drivetrain area, overall the EV should have markedly less maintenance required. Furthermore, most maintenance on our ICE's was drivetrain-related: oil, belts, plugs, whatever. Things can break in any part of the car, but I'd say the overall maintenance needs will be significantly reduced.

Basically the difference is tube-type television vs. solid-state television. I don't hear anyone clamoring to go back to tube-type. (Perhaps many reading this thread don't recall waiting with no TV until the repairman came and replaced the burnt out tubes, or father went to the store with a sack full of tubes and used the tube tester).
 
The auto dealers in the united states made 5.5 billion dollars of PROFIT in 2013 on their service and parts departments.
PROFIT!
That is more than 4 times what they made selling new cars. Over the last 10 years, they actually lose money on average selling new cars and the vast majority of the profits come from service.

I will post this image again - directly from the NADA 2013 "State of the Industry Report" http://www.nada.org/NR/rdonlyres/1B512AC7-DCFC-472C-A854-6F5527931A2F/0/2013_NADA_Data_102113.pdf
View attachment 62444

I know a few people in the car sales business, and they are extremely concerned about the impact of EVs on their dealerships. They have absolutely 0 incentive to steer customers towards an EV and will avoid doing so at almost all costs.

When people face an existential threat to their livelihood, they will fight to the bitter end, just as NADA is doing today. You can bet that they will fight, stall, and do everything possible to sabotage GM's and Ford's efforts in the EV space. There is just no money in it for them.
 
So, I hear this argument a lot, but I think it's vastly overstated. Just to take an example, it's great that the Model S doesn't need oil changes or spark plugs...but it still requires an annual service that costs more than I'll spend this year servicing either of my other two ICE cars.
We've had multiple reports on this forum of car dealers actively steering customers away from EV's. There must be a reason. If it isn't the service department, I'd love to hear a better explanation. Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic. If you have a better explanation please share it.

I don't have anything really important to do this weekend. On Saturday I may take a trip to a Chevy dealer and see if they'll let me test drive the Volt (the Web says there are 3 in San Antonio, one at each of 3 dealers... I'd ask about a Spark EV but those are CA and OR only) and to a Ford dealer to ask about a Focus Electric (5 in the area, but it doesn't say exactly where?) I'm curious how they'll react. I've seen Volts on the road around here so I know it's possible to buy one, but I don't know how much of a struggle it is.
 
Is it just me, or does it look like they are manipulating parts and service costs to balance out changes in new car sales?
In the 1970's the front end or car sales made most of the profit for a dealership, as things progressed new car sales was a small percentage of total dealership profit. This is measured in what is called service absorption and in the last 20 years most of the profit is made in service and parts and used car sales. With the advent of the Internet anyone can find out the dealer cost of any vehicle, so the manufactures offer the dealers trunk money. People come into to a dealership and say I know your invoice is x amount, what will you sell me this car for. So the difference in what the dealer pays for the car and what he sells it for is a slim margin but gets those incentive from the manufacturer to help with the total profit margin. Dealers now expect the parts and service department to make up the difference as well as used car sales. You will find that most dealers have a fairly large used car department and this is another profit center. I still think that most dealers and manufactures have not embraced the EV market, there thinking is that it is a niche market and not something that will be main stream. I hope that they wake up because it is the future and the market will be the main indicater when the Gen 3 shows up.
 
This may have already been mentioned but dealerships also make a whole lot of money in manufacturer kickbacks/bonuses. I doubt that is built into the posted chart on "new car sales." Most dealerships don't want you to even be aware that money exists.

It goes something like this: GM wants to move a bunch of Malibu's. They say to the dealership if you buy 75 Malibu's we will hand you a check for $150K which you can use for incentives to your customers. The dealer pockets the $150K and tells his salespeople that they can sell the Malibu at cost/invoice. On paper they would show no money being made on their Malibu sales.
 
I had to look away during that "presentation" -
the local dealership guy on a very big stage -
did not go so well

That was painful to watch indeed. The Fox crew and Erin Andrews did a good job of taking the spotlight gently away.

MadBum was seen being driven away in an Audi Q7 back home early this morning (yeah, we Bay Area folks are lapping up every tidbit that we can get at in the post-Series wake). Hopefully, he left the Colorado behind.
 
Incorrect. Tesla and Elon have stated that the annual Model as service is NOT required for the warranty to be valid.

And the electric household appliances I buy rarely if ever need "service" before I decide to replace them, which may be many years.

Electronic digital products are becoming more and more reliable over time. Yes, sometimes they break and can't be fixed. But most of the time they do not.

I never said the service was required for the warranty to be honored. I said the service was needed--and it is, if you are following Tesla's recommendations. There must be a reason they recommend a $600 annual service, no? Particularly if they really aren't trying to profit off of service operations, they must think the service is a good idea, right?

As for appliances, I wish I had your luck. Am currently on my second new fridge and second new dishwasher in the space of 5 years.

On the question of why dealers steer people away from EVs--I really think it's a combination of lack of experience/knowledge on the sales side coupled with a concern about potential customer satisfaction from the hobbled compliance cars that most other manufacturers are selling. Those cars are in many important ways just not as good as the ICE products on which they are based.

If I were selling Fords and Joe and Jane Average walked in looking for a Focus, do I think they really want to be talked into a Focus EV, when the gas version is faster, cheaper, has more room, and doesn't require lifestyle adjustments? Even if I am a strong believer in EVs and think the Averages would make great Focus EV customers, do I want to spend time convincing them of that when I could be using that time to move more cars?
 
On the question of why dealers steer people away from EVs--I really think it's a combination of lack of experience/knowledge on the sales side coupled with a concern about potential customer satisfaction from the hobbled compliance cars that most other manufacturers are selling. Those cars are in many important ways just not as good as the ICE products on which they are based.

If I were selling Fords and Joe and Jane Average walked in looking for a Focus, do I think they really want to be talked into a Focus EV, when the gas version is faster, cheaper, has more room, and doesn't require lifestyle adjustments? Even if I am a strong believer in EVs and think the Averages would make great Focus EV customers, do I want to spend time convincing them of that when I could be using that time to move more cars?

I'm probably not thinking it through completely, but this feels kind of like a circular argument to me. Automakers won't build good EV's because dealers don't want to sell them, and dealers don't want to sell EV's because the automakers aren't giving them good ones to sell? Does it really just come down to plain old fashioned status quo bias?
 
Status quo bias is part of it. Famed reluctance of large entities (especially low-margin, capital-intensive, long-lead-time ones) - which is partly based on status-quo - to get in to disruptive markets is another.

But I would call it a vicious cycle (where each one makes the other worse) rather than a circular argument (where each is used to explain each other with no starting point - we did have a starting point with EVs).
 
I'm probably not thinking it through completely, but this feels kind of like a circular argument to me. Automakers won't build good EV's because dealers don't want to sell them, and dealers don't want to sell EV's because the automakers aren't giving them good ones to sell? Does it really just come down to plain old fashioned status quo bias?

I would argue yes; as ChadS says, it makes perfect sense if you are a big company with low margins and very high fixed costs that you'd be reluctant to take risks like this.

To be fair to the established OEMs, Tesla has found a formula that is very different from what other companies have considered, and it's one that relies on a confluence of factors--long range + fast recharging network + perceived brand prestige = willingness to pay high costs. None of the other EVs on the market have all of those factors. Hell, none of the other EVs on the market have *any* of those factors.

That's why Tesla is such an innovative play--it's easy to ask "why don't other carmakers do a better job of selling EVs," but the real question is "why didn't any other automaker think to take at least three simultaneous fairly huge risks to design and build a car using processes that they had little or no experience with?"

For me, it's understandable that no one did that on their own. What I can't really understand is that now that Tesla has shown that it works, why isn't anyone else following suit?
 
I'm probably not thinking it through completely, but this feels kind of like a circular argument to me. Automakers won't build good EV's because dealers don't want to sell them, and dealers don't want to sell EV's because the automakers aren't giving them good ones to sell? Does it really just come down to plain old fashioned status quo bias?

No, you got it backwards. The dealers don't want to sell EVs because the automakers aren't giving them defective ones to sell.