Green New Deal

[juliusa]

A rigorous model predicts batteries will be cheapest storage

In addition, batteries will serve multiple purposes.

Something like a third of our energy is used for transportation. As vehicles move to batteries, much of that storage can be used to balance the grid. Most vehicles don't need to "fill their tank" every day. When it is cloudy or no wind, electricity can be more expensive and people will not "top off their tanks" if not needed. When the wind is cranking and sun is shining, electricity can be cheaper and people will "top off". All this will happen automatically with smart chargers and AI.

 

[juliusa]

Who is "we" ? I am asking about YOU.

Absolutely!! I invest to make financial return, so whatever investment makes the best return is where I will invest my money. If that is the investment that has the best financial return, that is where I will invest.

I also spend (not invest) on clean energy transition. My electric vehicles are expenditures, not investments,

 

[nwdiver]

A rigorous model predicts batteries will be cheapest storage
Model predicts lithium-ion batteries most competitive for storage applications by 2030
...
Deciding how we're going to invest in clean energy storage requires a similar analysis, say researchers at Imperial College London. They developed a model to determine the lifetime costs of 9 electricity storage technologies for 12 different applications between 2015 and 2050. The model, which predicts lithium-ion batteries to be the cheapest technology in the coming decades, appears January 9 in the journal Joule, and is available open access

Problem is that you can't look at it strictly from a $/kWh perspective. There's 'storage' that will be called up daily, weekly, monthly, seasonally, annually and possibly even once every 5-10 years. A battery that's super cheap $/kWh daily could be the worst option for something that's only used once a month because it's so expensive $/kW. Another storage mechanism that's super cheap $/kW could be great for seasonal use but terrible for daily use. We'll probably need a mix.

 

[mspohr]

Problem is that you can't look at it strictly from a $/kWh perspective. There's 'storage' that will be called up daily, weekly, monthly, seasonally, annually and possibly even once every 5-10 years. A battery that's super cheap $/kWh daily could be the worst option for something that's only used once a month because it's so expensive $/kW. Another storage mechanism that's super cheap $/kW could be great for seasonal use but terrible for daily use. We'll probably need a mix.

The model looks at different uses and calculates the best solution for each. These graphs are a good summary

 

[mspohr]

Surprise! The NY Daily News (not usually a good resource) has a meaty, well balanced article on Green New Deal.
(I just noticed that this article is by Bill McKibben so he is the source of the solid analysis.)

Ocasio-Cortez's climate genius stroke: Her Green New Deal is the most serious response to the crisis yet - NY Daily News
...

Ocasio-Cortez is in fact more right on the biggest questions than anyone else in the House of Representatives. Call her Ocasio-Cortex; where it matters, she seems to understand issues at a deeper level than most pols.

The best example is climate change, the issue of our time, where her Green New Deal plan has provided a badly needed new opening. Early this week, a research group published new data on U.S. carbon emissions, showing they’d risen sharply over the past year.

Even scarier: We’re basically producing the same amount of carbon as we did in 1990, when we first learned of the climate crisis.


Essentially, through Democratic and Republican administrations, we’ve done far too little. There are a few comprehensive state-level plans: California is acting, and environmental justice groups in New York State, for instance, have painstakingly put together a Climate and Community Protection Act that’s a model for others.

 

[SageBrush]

These graphs are a good summary

What do the abbreviations stand for ?

 

[mspohr]

What do the abbreviations stand for ?

Welcome to the world of scumbag publishers (Elsevier).
Supposedly open access but they want $31 to open the access.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S254243511830583X

 

[mspohr]

What do the abbreviations stand for ?

Welcome to the world of scumbag publishers (Elsevier).
Supposedly open access but they want $31 to open the access.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S254243511830583X

Found a hole in their paywall
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjACegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw2QKAg_uP1aHLbe-3ztqHdS

 

[SageBrush]

Thanks @mspohr
This table shows the different technologies

 

[juliusa]

new data on U.S. carbon emissions, showing they’d risen sharply over the past year.

Rose about the same as GDP.

The greening of the grid was offset by increases in transportation and industrial.

Seems the grid is progressing quite nicely ("record number of coal plan closings"), but more work is needed in the other areas. We know how to do better in transportation...Elon is focusing on the right area.

 

[SageBrush]

Thanks @mspohr
This table shows the different technologies

The greening of the grid was offset by increases in transportation .

The brave new frontier: SUVs and urban trucks

 

[juliusa]

The brave new frontier: SUVs and urban trucks

Exactly. Don't even sell sedans anymore...

It the SUVs and urban trucks were at least electric it would help. That is also one of the arguments for a carbon tax - fuel is obviously too cheap based on the vehicles people are purchasing.

 

[Merrill]

Exactly. Don't even sell sedans anymore...

It the SUVs and urban trucks were at least electric it would help. That is also one of the arguments for a carbon tax - fuel is obviously too cheap based on the vehicles people are purchasing.

Things would be different if gas was $8 a gallon. When Ford said they would not produce sedans anymore and focus on SUV’s and Trucks and GM is shutting down plants you know the landscape is changing. Let’s hope some of those will be electric.

 

[nwdiver]

Maybe more competent UPS employees should be part of a 'Green New Deal'. Lost 12 of 78 panels in my last shipment. First time I've lost panels but I'd like to know how bad you have to suck at your job to drop a pallet.... as if that wasn't good enough they also drove the forks of a forklift into a second pallet destroying 3 more panels. WTF UPS

 

[Merrill]

UPS was always very reliable until the last few years, damaged packages, drivers with attitudes. We have had several packages left at our community mailboxes on our country road 1 miles from our house. Also drivers saying they tried to deliver but no one home, they did not feel like driving up our narrow road and did not even attempt delivery.

 

[mspohr]

Maybe more competent UPS employees should be part of a 'Green New Deal'. Lost 12 of 78 panels in my last shipment. First time I've lost panels but I'd like to know how bad you have to suck at your job to drop a pallet.... as if that wasn't good enough they also drove the forks of a forklift into a second pallet destroying 3 more panels. WTF UPS

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I didn't think UPS delivered items that large. Looks like they are trying to discourage large fragile deliveries.

 

[nwdiver]

I didn't think UPS delivered items that large. Looks like they are trying to discourage large fragile deliveries.

UPS has a freight division. In the future I'll definitely insist that vendors NOT ship via UPS freight. This has been a nightmare. The panels were shipped on 12/20 and we just now discovered the full scope of the damage.

And relative to other items solar panels really aren't that fragile. Most of the panels that were dropped (probably ~4' off the back of a truck ) survived. You just can'd stab them with a forklift... even then 3 of them stopped the fork.

 

[ohmman]

UPS was always very reliable until the last few years, damaged packages, drivers with attitudes. We have had several packages left at our community mailboxes on our country road 1 miles from our house. Also drivers saying they tried to deliver but no one home, they did not feel like driving up our narrow road and did not even attempt delivery.

Yeah, we probably share a driver or two. You’ve been down my road so you can imagine how much is left at the end.

 

[GSP]

Maybe more competent UPS employees should be part of a 'Green New Deal'. Lost 12 of 78 panels in my last shipment. First time I've lost panels but I'd like to know how bad you have to suck at your job to drop a pallet.... as if that wasn't good enough they also drove the forks of a forklift into a second pallet destroying 3 more panels. WTF UPS

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Arg! How frustrating. That is really sloppy handling of valuable cargo.

Sorry to see you have this setback. I hope UPS makes it right for you, and quickly.

GSP

 

[bro1999]

I'm quite tiring of AOC already. ImI afraid she's gonna turn into the Ted Cruz of the Democratic party.