AOC makes sense. Cruz is an ignorant blowhard.
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Green New Deal
- Thread starter mspohr
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Merrill
Merrill
We need more like AOC to shake up this government that seems clueless.
Standing Rock inspired Ocasio-Cortez to run. That's the power of protest
Standing Rock inspired Ocasio-Cortez to run. That's the power of protest | Rebecca Solnit
Green New Deal got its start at Standing Rock.
Standing Rock inspired Ocasio-Cortez to run. That's the power of protest | Rebecca Solnit
Green New Deal got its start at Standing Rock.
Politico traces GND back to Obama's stimulus package.
“The facts are, Obama accomplished more on climate than any president ever, and also he failed to go as far as was necessary to give our generation a livable future,” says O’Hanlon, the 23-year-old spokesman for the Sunrise Movement.
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The Trouble With the ‘Green New Deal’
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Although the idea sounds as radical and new as Ocasio-Cortez herself, it’s been done once before, and just a decade ago: President Barack Obama signed a prototype Green New Deal into law in February 2009, pouring an unprecedented $90 billion into clean electricity, renewable fuels, advanced batteries, energy efficiency, a smarter grid, and a slew of other green initiatives.
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“People don’t understand how forward-leaning the stimulus was on climate issues,” says Congresswoman Kathy Castor (D-Fla.), who chairs the new Select Committee on the Climate Crisis. “It’s a road map for a Green New Deal.”
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But the Green New Deal, like the green stimulus, is ultimately supposed to produce economic as well as environmental transformation, and it’s raising some of the same questions Democrats grappled with a decade ago. What should be the top priority, and how far should it go to wrap in other priorities? Should the green stuff focus on safe and proven strategies for cutting emissions, or riskier and more aspirational ideas as well? What’s the plan to deal with the inevitable attacks from fossil-fuel interests and the Republican Party? What kind of compromises would be acceptable to broaden support and perhaps even win over some moderate Republicans? And should there be tax hikes or spending cuts to pay for it?
“The facts are, Obama accomplished more on climate than any president ever, and also he failed to go as far as was necessary to give our generation a livable future,” says O’Hanlon, the 23-year-old spokesman for the Sunrise Movement.
...
The Trouble With the ‘Green New Deal’
...
Although the idea sounds as radical and new as Ocasio-Cortez herself, it’s been done once before, and just a decade ago: President Barack Obama signed a prototype Green New Deal into law in February 2009, pouring an unprecedented $90 billion into clean electricity, renewable fuels, advanced batteries, energy efficiency, a smarter grid, and a slew of other green initiatives.
...
“People don’t understand how forward-leaning the stimulus was on climate issues,” says Congresswoman Kathy Castor (D-Fla.), who chairs the new Select Committee on the Climate Crisis. “It’s a road map for a Green New Deal.”
...
But the Green New Deal, like the green stimulus, is ultimately supposed to produce economic as well as environmental transformation, and it’s raising some of the same questions Democrats grappled with a decade ago. What should be the top priority, and how far should it go to wrap in other priorities? Should the green stuff focus on safe and proven strategies for cutting emissions, or riskier and more aspirational ideas as well? What’s the plan to deal with the inevitable attacks from fossil-fuel interests and the Republican Party? What kind of compromises would be acceptable to broaden support and perhaps even win over some moderate Republicans? And should there be tax hikes or spending cuts to pay for it?
Class, no need to over think this one, say it with me - solar, wind, battery storage. solar, wind, battery storage. solar, wind, battery storage.
Who's afraid of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez?
Who is afraid of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? | Nathan Robinson
You can see, then, why the Democratic party ends up being so disappointing. You shouldn’t pass judgment on anyone or anything when you get to Congress. Even though the congressional Democratic party has utterly failed to grapple with climate change, the great existential problem of our time! Politico reports that “when House majority leader Steny Hoyer told reporters that a new climate committee that Ocasio-Cortez championed would not have subpoena power, she retweeted the news and chastised Democratic leadership”. She said: “Our goal is to treat climate change like the serious, existential threat it is by drafting an ambitious solution on the scale necessary – AKA a “Green New Deal” – to get it done. A weak committee misses the point and endangers people.” This is absolutely true. She is right. Climate action has to be serious, and if Democrats in Congress won’t be serious, they need to be called on it!
Who is afraid of Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? | Nathan Robinson
You can see, then, why the Democratic party ends up being so disappointing. You shouldn’t pass judgment on anyone or anything when you get to Congress. Even though the congressional Democratic party has utterly failed to grapple with climate change, the great existential problem of our time! Politico reports that “when House majority leader Steny Hoyer told reporters that a new climate committee that Ocasio-Cortez championed would not have subpoena power, she retweeted the news and chastised Democratic leadership”. She said: “Our goal is to treat climate change like the serious, existential threat it is by drafting an ambitious solution on the scale necessary – AKA a “Green New Deal” – to get it done. A weak committee misses the point and endangers people.” This is absolutely true. She is right. Climate action has to be serious, and if Democrats in Congress won’t be serious, they need to be called on it!
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Infrastructure, regulatory reform, removal of fossil externalities.
The rest will follow the dollar.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Well argued opinion piece to settle on decarbonization consensus rather than demand 100% renewables.
I support the idea even though I am a 97% renewables kind of guy because I think it defuses some of the knee jerk crazy lefty rhetoric.
I support the idea even though I am a 97% renewables kind of guy because I think it defuses some of the knee jerk crazy lefty rhetoric.
I like the idea of phrasing it as decarbonization. It may be unrealistic to demand 100% renewables... especially for the last few percent. If a power source has no net carbon, it should be viable.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
I'm probably going to be skewered by @nwdiver here because his arguments against nuclear are compelling: it mostly continues to exist due to corruption and political power. My POV is that fight belongs in a different arena and it does no good to turn the nuclear lobby against decarbonization.
I'm not in favor of nuclear in the least; I just think it can die on its own (de)merits unrelated to carbon.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
I don't know about that
I'm not completely unsympathetic to the carbon-free energy that nuclear power can provide and I think a case can certainly be made for the economic viability of existing nuclear plants in some markets. I believe I've even posted positively about supporting some nuclear plants with subsidies. My point is that we need to be pragmatic about it. The goal is efficient decarbonization. Sometimes that might be paying an extra $100M/yr to a 2GW nuclear plant so it keeps generating ~16TWh/yr instead of closing. Sometimes that might mean allowing the plant to close because it needs $200M/yr and that money is better spent on wind, solar or storage. We need to be pragmatic.
See? I found a positive comment
Then we have this.
https://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Nuclear-Regulator-Gregory-Jaczko-ebook/dp/B07GNSNXCY
Apparently the NRC is corrupt and dangerous.
https://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Nuclear-Regulator-Gregory-Jaczko-ebook/dp/B07GNSNXCY
Apparently the NRC is corrupt and dangerous.
SageBrush
REJECT Fascism
Hmmm ... are those numbers correct ?
The subsidy would be on top of whatever the nuke plant is already charging.
$100M a year works out to another 0.66 cents a kWh, while wholesale wind PPAs in the range of 1.6 - 2 cents a kWh. Is nuclear electricity sold for 1 cent a kWh ?
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nwdiver
Well-Known Member
No... just hypotheticals. I'm not sophisticated enough to calculate the real numbers. They wouldn't be straight forward like TWh/yr; As wind expands curtailment increases. At what point does it make sense to shut down a nuclear plant to reduce curtailment? I dunno... there are A LOT of factors involved.
Interesting. A couple years back we had a newspaper article about the WA State Columbia generation station (WWPSS for us old-timers) and how the old PPA (signed decades ago, long before RE took off) was costing ratepayers a bundle over just buying power off the wholesale market. This, in an area that is very pro-nuclear and surrounded by hydro and wind power that costs pennies per KWh. Every spring we spill water and curtail wind, often shutting down the nuclear plant for annual maintenance, and send GWs to California. It’s amazing to me that renewables have dropped in price so quickly that fully built and amortized nuclear plants are being pushed out. I think more renewables, distribution and smart-grid will just push more nuclear off the grid, which might seem like a good thing. But in reality, until every carbon emitting power plant (and transport vehicle) is shut down, we will be better off with nuclear. Yes, it may be expensive and still generate waste, but those things don’t go away by stopping power generation. Nuclear waste will be around for generations, get used to it. We might as well get some non-carbon electricity out or the deal.
nwdiver
Well-Known Member
Hydro doesn't incur the same O&M costs that a nuclear plant does AND with most hydro electricity is a happy perk not the primary objective. The primary purpose of most dams is flood control and irrigation not electricity generation.
I agree we should keep nuclear plants open even subsidizing them but there will come a point that it simply makes more fiscal sense to take a step back today letting a nuke close in terms of decarbonization so we can take 3 steps forward tomorrow with solar, wind and storage.
The Green New Deal in New York will double solar power
NY State is going for their own GND. Solar, wind and jobs.
NY State is going for their own GND. Solar, wind and jobs.
And a longer, wonkish piece from Forbes on how and why it will be good for the economy.
The Green New Deal: How We Will Pay For It Isn't 'A Thing' - And Inflation Isn't Either
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Which takes us to the Green New Deal. Representative Ocasio-Cortez, whose educational background is in economics, understands as few leaders seem to do that our problems of late have been problems of deflation, not inflation. She also knows well that both inequality and the loss of our middle class have both caused and been worsened by these deflationary trends, along with their mirror images in the financial markets: our asset price hyperinflations – ‘bubbles’ – and busts. Her Green New Deal aims to do nothing short of reversing this slow-motion national suicide – and end our ongoing ‘planet-cide’ in the process.
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Have I succeeded, then? Have I convinced you both that there isn’t a ‘pay for’ challenge and that there isn’t, thanks to a multitude of theoretical, empirical, and policy lever reasons, an ‘inflation’ challenge either? If you are bold, know finance, and care about our future, you probably didn’t need much convincing. If instead you are frightened, financially untutored, or cavalier about our economy or our planet, please buck up, wise up, and suit up. It is time to say game on for the Green New Deal.
The Green New Deal: How We Will Pay For It Isn't 'A Thing' - And Inflation Isn't Either
...
Which takes us to the Green New Deal. Representative Ocasio-Cortez, whose educational background is in economics, understands as few leaders seem to do that our problems of late have been problems of deflation, not inflation. She also knows well that both inequality and the loss of our middle class have both caused and been worsened by these deflationary trends, along with their mirror images in the financial markets: our asset price hyperinflations – ‘bubbles’ – and busts. Her Green New Deal aims to do nothing short of reversing this slow-motion national suicide – and end our ongoing ‘planet-cide’ in the process.
...
Have I succeeded, then? Have I convinced you both that there isn’t a ‘pay for’ challenge and that there isn’t, thanks to a multitude of theoretical, empirical, and policy lever reasons, an ‘inflation’ challenge either? If you are bold, know finance, and care about our future, you probably didn’t need much convincing. If instead you are frightened, financially untutored, or cavalier about our economy or our planet, please buck up, wise up, and suit up. It is time to say game on for the Green New Deal.
A proposal to make the TVA an engine of the Green New Deal.
New Proposal Aims To Make Legacy FDR Works Project The Flagship Of A Green New Deal
New Proposal Aims To Make Legacy FDR Works Project The Flagship Of A Green New Deal
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