Has anyone sued Tesla for FSD costs?

[pdk42]

I didn't get suckered into buying FSD, but since I ordered in the summer of 2019 I was well aware of the claims of "coming soon". I briefly considered adding it after I got the car, but the reality of what it was doing vs the promise sowed enough doubt in my mind to hold back.

I'll be watching this thread with interest though. I wonder if the media might be interested in a story here? They generally seem only too keen to bash Tesla on anything so I'm sure there'd be a lot of interest at The Daily Fail or such like.

 

[Sean.]

In Ashok's CVPR 2022 presentation on Occupancy Networks, he mentioned that there were approx 100k cars with FSD. I presume that's a worldwide figure.

NA vs RoW split?

 

[init6]

NA vs RoW split?

No idea - he's a geek. Borders mean nothing.

 

[Sean.]

You are right that small claims don't set binding precedents, but Tesla can't make you sign an NDA.

Which FB group did you see this on out of interest?

If it gets to UK small claims then NDA wouldn’t be applicable. If they tapped you up in the waiting room however with a full and final settlement figure I’d expect that would come with an ironclad NDA

 

[Sean.]

No idea - he's a geek. Borders mean nothing.

To be fair one could probably make a decent stab based on the total number they’ve sold into UK vs total figures and extrapolate a similar ratio.

 

[init6]

To be fair one could probably make a decent stab based on the total number they’ve sold into UK vs total figures and extrapolate a similar ratio.

Or just count the number of angry posters on this forum

 

[PaddyB]

I have always looked upon adding FSD as like adding a tip or a gratuity to a bill.

Essentially you are paying for nothing except for the hope of a possible future service. And the extra money you pay is going towards a good cause, ie the development of the service and the general betterment of humanity.

I did not buy FSD, and I doubt I would part with any money until I knew I was getting a service which I genuinely thought was worth paying for.

But hats off to those who have paid for FSD as they are very much helping Tesla with its mission. I personally don't imagine there will be anything even remotely like 'full self driving' for another decade or two.

 

[Sean.]

To stand any chance of a suit succeeding, it would have to be shown that Tesla deliberately and wilfully advertised a feature it knew would never be functional at any level. Given the admittedly slow but plodding progress of FSD, even as a personally aggrieved party, I can't see how that could be proved.

Not really. On an individual basis this would only ever see the light of day in small claims and the claim here simply would be failing to deliver what was ordered. The same way as any other good or service of a similar value.

I ordered and paid for FSD. Yes.

Did I receive FSD? No.

Did I partially receive FSD? No.

Even if Tesla deferred to lack of compliance to regulation - surely then it’s an even stronger plaintiff argument. Why did you accept payment from your customer for something which was not compliant with the regulations in place at the time?

 

[Durzel]

I just can't believe people actually trusted that statement - even then. There was no law that allowed the level of FSD that Tesla advertised, and still isn't (happy for lawyers to chip in).

I shouldn't be expected to have to trawl through however many years of prior Musk/Tesla statements to work out how much truth there is in any promise they make to me. The contract should (and does) stand on its own.

As it happened I thought I had a reasonably good idea of Musk & Tesla when I ordered the car, and took the inducements about "Automatic driving on city streets", etc coming later that year at face value. It was not apparent to me until past the point of being able to return the car that these promises likely couldn't be realised in a practical timeframe, or that he is notorious for making unrealistic promises.

 

[Sean.]

Or just count the number of angry posters on this forum

Just plain fairness innit?

Same as a BMW driver (sorry to pick on any BMW owners here) ordering heated seats as a feature on demand.

You then expect the seats to get warm when you want. You can’t see BMW saying yes thanks for your money, we’ll give you those heated seats at “….insert indeterminate future date”

[though heated seat FoD would be a darn sight more useful and cheaper than FSD]

 

[WannabeOwner]

What I don't understand why people ordered it anyway?

Apart from @edb49 answer another was the frequent (at that time) bumping up of FSD price - "If you don't buy it now then soon you won't be able to afford it at all"

it was cheaper to buy up front than as an add on. (If I recall correctly.)

Yes (at that time) that was correct. Subsequently it became "same price to add later" (might have been better for BiK to do that ...)

If they tapped you up in the waiting room however with a full and final settlement figure I’d expect that would come with an ironclad NDA

Wouldn't' that be THE reason to say "I'd like to hear what the Judge thinks" ?

I have it on the MS (because I thought the price was going up .. it did, sort of, Elon was then persuaded that there was no benefit in UK and so "Price increases postponed until UK has same benefit as USA" so price didn't actually rise)

The MS also has connectivity subscription ... and, fair-to-say, cost a bnit more than the M3/MY too ...

... BUT ... the thing (apart from everything listed above!) that has me pissed is that my M3 previously, and now its MY replacement (zero extras, no Connectivity, no Acceleration Boost, Nada), always had/gets OTA updates BEFORE my MS. Even a delay on the proletariat getting bunce until after ME would be something

 

[init6]

Just plain fairness innit?

Same as a BMW driver (sorry to pick on any BMW owners here) ordering heated seats as a feature on demand.

You then expect the seats to get warm when you want. You can’t see BMW saying yes thanks for your money, we’ll give you those heated seats at “….insert indeterminate future date”

[though heated seat FoD would be a darn sight more useful and cheaper than FSD]

 

[NewbieT]

I think if you're going legal then you really need concrete proof they've broken a contract with you.

You'll probably need more than a grab from a web page, that's just misadvertising, but rather something contractual that says you will receive something specific which they've then not done.

If you plan going small claims, go for it, until it goes to a hearing you've nothing to lose. When it goes to hearing, then you've any legal counsel's costs you employ to cover.

Formation of a contract. When buying the car you rely upon the information on the webpage and on the option order screen and those induce the contract. Tesla said they’re going provide XYZ for £s and they didn’t provide it. Partial performance for NoA etc maybe. It’s misrepresentation and breach of contract.

http://www.a4id.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/A4ID-english-contract-law-at-a-glance.pdf

 

[NewbieT]

Elon always said RHD markets will be addressed last in FSDb expansion. It obviously requires more changes than adapting the existing US model to EU roads. So I don't think they'll be spending 1 minute of devs time on legacy FSD code at the moment.

You mean it’s not just copy, paste, select all, flip horizontally? That’s a shame!

 

[WllXM]

You mean it’s not just copy, paste, select all, flip horizontally? That’s a shame!

There's some 'divide lane width by 2' involved too...

 

[NewbieT]

You are right that small claims don't set binding precedents, but Tesla can't make you sign an NDA.

Which FB group did you see this on out of interest?

But you would probably choose to sign a NDA in return for a nice easy reasonable out of court settlement. Vs self- represent against Tesla’s lawyers…assuming they turn up.

 

[NewbieT]

The UK ADAS drivers have had FSD Beta single stack for a while now, but yes, they’ve likely dropped all development on legacy since.

So we can’t have FSD Beta because its not finished and not Type Approved because it doesn’t meet the regs…..but Tesla can?

Not my area of knowledge but do manufacturers get exemptions for test cars? Or are the Tesla test cars driving ‘radically altered vehicles’ that need Type Approval and re-registering? Or because the driver is in control and it’s just ADAS it doesn’t matter?

 

[Zilla91]

The UK ADAS drivers have had FSD Beta single stack for a while now, but yes, they’ve likely dropped all development on legacy since.

I mean that's clearly bollocks otherwise they'd have mentioned this to keep purchasers sweet and dangle a carrot in front of new customers that this might actually be available soon

 

[Sean.]

self- represent against Tesla’s lawyers…assuming they turn up.

Reckon they’d lawyer up. Even for small claims. Probably magic circle types too. So if you were to fail then costs could be interesting.

That’s of course if it indeed got that far.

 

[MrBadger]

To stand any chance of a suit succeeding, it would have to be shown that Tesla deliberately and wilfully advertised a feature it knew would never be functional at any level.

That would be verging on trying to get them for fraud. I don’t think anyone thinks that. Consumer rights is completely different and no wilful act or, unless going for additional compensation, loss or use or enjoyment is needing to be shown.

If you plan going small claims, go for it, until it goes to a hearing you've nothing to lose. When it goes to hearing, then you've any legal counsel's costs you employ to cover.

Small claims has minimal cost. Iirc around £40. If you want to go bigger then many household insurances may also offer legal services, with restrictions and caveats.

I am not surprised that people are pissed. However, it was clear at the time that FSD did not work and people 'bought' it based on a promise that was not honoured, to date. What I don't understand why people ordered it anyway? You could always subscribe to it at any point in the future, why were people eager to hand over their cash upfront for a promise.
It does not make sense today, but didn't make sense then either.

It makes more sense if you look at the UK centric timeline especially for early adopters such as early Model 3 purchasers. Far from clear especially when their CEO makes claims wide from the mark.