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Having Second Thoughts
- Thread starter smorgasbord
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This is a bit off-topic from the thread, but these trips (which I've done in the past myself) don't discourage me from getting Model S, and I wouldn't characterize them as "inappropriate" for Model S. Since the range is close, you wouldn't need much charge to make it uphill to Tahoe. Here's a map from ChargePoint, showing the variety of places to charge on the way to Tahoe from SF - and this is just one company:
I won't be surprised to see a Tesla Supercharger along the route within a couple years. I wonder if there's a charge station near that great pie place along the route....
As for charging at the high school, did you check to see what charging stations might be nearby? Did you call the school to see if they've got an exterior outlet you could plug into? If your daughter's VB tournaments are anything like my son's, they last all day - long enough that even charging at 110 would get you the 50 or so miles you needed to complete the round trip. Or, you stop for something to eat on the way home and charge.
None of this means, of course, that Model S would be right for you. Sounds like it wouldn't since you love the style and luxury of your Karma, you don't want to hassle about charging away from home, and for your typical daily use you get to operate in pure BEV mode. That's cool. Different people make different choices in similar situations.
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smorg, I was really looking forward to your take on "Model S Reflections"
Well, like I said, we're not looking to buy an ICE car instead, we're deciding if we want to delay the purchase until Model S version 2. So, you just might have to wait another year or two. Good news there is that the dark grey is the color we'd choose. So, Model S would be Roadster's twin, except for size (especially width).
It's ironic that the car with the best 21st century drivetrain has only mediocre 20th century luxury. I can live with the 20th century exterior styling, but park distance sensors aren't even an option on Model S when cars with 20th ICE drivetrains practically park the car for you after finding the spot for you:
It's an electric car, and I can't even run a low power 110 volt inverter? Heck, even Ford pickup trucks have built-in 110 outlets now:
I believe in Tesla, and so I believe Tesla will fix these things, and others. I look at my timing decision here as weighing my instant gratification needs of going all electric now versus being patient and getting the Model S outfitted the way I really want later.
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I've got to admit, that is very cool. I've always been very proud of my parallel parking abilities though, and that system would take all the glory!
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AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
And that wasn't even all that impressive, considering the parking space in that video was enormous. I don't know the limit of the BMW system offhand, but the system we have in our VW Touran, which works in the same way as the one in the 5-series shown in the video, needs a minimal front and rear maneuvering space of only 16 inches each!
Even if one can easily parallel park his or her car on his own, having such a system is a real comfort plus.
But I just noticed something very interesting when looking at the Euro VW Passat compared to the US VW Passat as it showed something that helps me begin to understand Tesla's thinking, as they are obviously - for now - focused on the American customers:
Even the - top of the line - US 2013 VW Passat V6 SEL Premium has a features list that is very short. It offers amenities that Tesla also sees as standard, while the options list is even shorter, like with the Model S. And seeing that even that high-end Passat doesn't offer Xenon lights even as an option makes the contents of the Model S tech package seem really high-tech. And most of the optional items for the US Passat are design options like different wheels and various other exterior and interior trim "updates".
Now when I compare the specs of the Euro Passat, I see that it is quite a bit smaller (both in exterior and interior dimensions), but offers far more features both on the standard and the options list. And that includes loads of high-tech stuff that make the tech package seem outdated by lightyears.
Conclusion: the American car market seems to want big cars with some amenities like leather, automatic gearbox, homelink, Sirius radio, but doesn't really care for the high-tech stuff Europeans seem to demand more and more (safety assistants of all kinds, various "family" and flexibility features, tech nerd stuff like HUD, LED lights, Auto-parking, massage seats etc.)
I am really curious to see what the Euro Model S will be like in comparison to the US version. Whether Tesla will try to sell the S over here with the same short features list or whether they have some secret aces up their sleeves
The things I'm most interested in are the things that Austin mentioned: safety assistants of all kinds, various "family" and flexibility features, tech nerd stuff like HUD, LED lights. Of course, I'd like better cup holders and convenient hidden storage but they really come in second to the safety features.
dennis
Model S Plaid
I'm a member of the Chargepoint network. In fact the CEO of Chargepoint (Coulomb Technologies) lives in the same town as me and drives a Karma that is identical to mine.
You are right, I don't wish to add a couple of hours to a 4 hour trip in order to charge or tell my daughter we are skipping In-n-Out so we can charge the car. I'm delighted with electric propulsion and mpg 3-4x my previous two daily drivers (M5 and Lexus LS600h). And I prefer putting in 6-8 gallons of gas every 3 weeks to searching for places to charge.
I'm responding to this to illustrate that there is a valid market for PHEV cars, even if it is an interim solution until the charging infrastructure gets built out so that driving a BEV does not force behavioral changes in consumers.
But do you truly enjoy driving a large 5300 lb car that feels cramped on the inside? The Karma is a drop dead gorgeous car on the outside, but I really couldn't imagine driving such a heavy beast of a car everyday. I drove the Karma, and gave my Model S deposit later the same day. Now, after driving the Model S, I'm rethinking this whole thing because less bulky and lighter cars are easier and more enjoyable to drive, to say nothing about creature comforts we all used to take for granted.
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strider
Active Member
Or battery tech advances such that a BEV has a 500-mile range. This shouldn't be that far away. Until then I agree that there is absolutely a market for PHEV's and they will serve their owners well during this transition period.
dennis
Model S Plaid
Yes I love driving the Karma. I've owned five 7-series BMWs (1978-2000) and a Lexus LS600hL, so I am used to driving big luxury sedans. The Karma handling is MUCH better than the Lexus (although that is an easy win), and comparable to the handling of the 7's. I think there is too much emphasis on the curb weight without understanding that the car has a low CG and the battery mass is in the middle of the car. So you don't really feel the weight, except that the car feels very planted in a turn. Just for contrast, my MB GL450 weighs 5200 lbs. With the air suspension it handles well for a large SUV, but because of the high CG it is much worse than the Karma. So it's not only the weight, but where it is located. I won't argue that smaller vehicles handle better, but among large sedans the Karma does very well.
Also, I'm 6'1"/195 and do not find the Karma cramped at all. There is plenty of front seat head/shoulder/leg room. Not so true with the back seat, but I never sit there. :smile:
114 > 48, or second thoughts on the second thoughts
This evening I got to spend some time inside VIN 114, which is an ex-Get Amped test drive car (non-Sig Performance, Black/Tan/CF, Tech/Upgraded Stereo, 21" Silver). I have to say, the fit and finish of this car far surpasses VIN 48.
So while there is still room for improvement, the interior is approaching something I can live with. The leather surfaces in the car were very nice and the CF material is cool. Some fit and finish issues on the dash and headliner that I assume will be taken care of, and still too much plastic chrome, but it's not annoyingly bad now - just not ideal. Cheapest thing that struck me were the non-lighted visor mirrors, which were embarrassing. Hopefully the new lighted ones also are of higher quality and design.
But, the seats are probably the biggest interior problem, between lack of adustability and the plastic backs. The rear bench seat was extremely comfortable, however.
There are still issues with the lack of proximity sensors in the front (rear view camera seems good enough for the back when parking), no electric folding mirrors, no door pockets, and still too big sunroof bar, but I don't feel turned off sitting in that car, which I did sitting in the Betas. Unfortunately, of those only the proximity sensor seems fixable. The new shelf under the touchscreen solves my wallet/iphone issue, but Tesla should delete the existing cupholders from the center console and put is a tray underneath the armrest instead. A sliding drink tray for the rear seats would also be good.
For comparison, I also sat in some fully equipped Audi A6 and A7s. They're very nice inside as well, if you're OK with a high center console. Black headliner, burl wood, black or a nice medium brown leather, LED lighting. The Audi's are now local hotspots with a T-Mobile plan that supposedly give you unlimited data (no voice) for under $13/month on a 36 month contract). And they have options for heads-up display, collision avoidance, adaptive cruise control, etc. While Tesla's 17" touchscreen is cool, I would prefer the Audi's interior, even without its more extensive technology options. The sport option for the Audi's comes with 20" wheels/35 aspect, but 19"/40 aspect is also available. The upcoming S6 or S7 might even give MSP a run for its money. I hope to test drive the Audis this weekend.
The fully loaded A7 was about $82K. Knock off about $10K for the techno options not available on the Tesla, and the A7 is about $20K cheaper than MSP, which makes a 10 year TCO for the two cars pretty equivalent. So, that's a big achievement for Tesla, but as a potential owner it's still frustrating to have to sacrifice technology in the world's best electric car. Waiting 2 or more years should level the playing field if Tesla has its act together - the question is do I want to wait?
This evening I got to spend some time inside VIN 114, which is an ex-Get Amped test drive car (non-Sig Performance, Black/Tan/CF, Tech/Upgraded Stereo, 21" Silver). I have to say, the fit and finish of this car far surpasses VIN 48.
So while there is still room for improvement, the interior is approaching something I can live with. The leather surfaces in the car were very nice and the CF material is cool. Some fit and finish issues on the dash and headliner that I assume will be taken care of, and still too much plastic chrome, but it's not annoyingly bad now - just not ideal. Cheapest thing that struck me were the non-lighted visor mirrors, which were embarrassing. Hopefully the new lighted ones also are of higher quality and design.
But, the seats are probably the biggest interior problem, between lack of adustability and the plastic backs. The rear bench seat was extremely comfortable, however.
There are still issues with the lack of proximity sensors in the front (rear view camera seems good enough for the back when parking), no electric folding mirrors, no door pockets, and still too big sunroof bar, but I don't feel turned off sitting in that car, which I did sitting in the Betas. Unfortunately, of those only the proximity sensor seems fixable. The new shelf under the touchscreen solves my wallet/iphone issue, but Tesla should delete the existing cupholders from the center console and put is a tray underneath the armrest instead. A sliding drink tray for the rear seats would also be good.
For comparison, I also sat in some fully equipped Audi A6 and A7s. They're very nice inside as well, if you're OK with a high center console. Black headliner, burl wood, black or a nice medium brown leather, LED lighting. The Audi's are now local hotspots with a T-Mobile plan that supposedly give you unlimited data (no voice) for under $13/month on a 36 month contract). And they have options for heads-up display, collision avoidance, adaptive cruise control, etc. While Tesla's 17" touchscreen is cool, I would prefer the Audi's interior, even without its more extensive technology options. The sport option for the Audi's comes with 20" wheels/35 aspect, but 19"/40 aspect is also available. The upcoming S6 or S7 might even give MSP a run for its money. I hope to test drive the Audis this weekend.
The fully loaded A7 was about $82K. Knock off about $10K for the techno options not available on the Tesla, and the A7 is about $20K cheaper than MSP, which makes a 10 year TCO for the two cars pretty equivalent. So, that's a big achievement for Tesla, but as a potential owner it's still frustrating to have to sacrifice technology in the world's best electric car. Waiting 2 or more years should level the playing field if Tesla has its act together - the question is do I want to wait?
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SCW-Greg
Active Member
That was the car I drove here. It's the configuration/color combo I fell in love with, though still debating MS vs. MSP version of it.
Norbert
TSLA will win
That's the point of the exercise.
Not sure if you heard they are working on making ACC retrofittable.
That's where I'm at. I've convinced myself I do need to change cars, and I do like the A7, though I've not test-driven it yet, mostly because my local dealer is hopeless (excellent on the service side, crap on the sales side). I'll be there tomorrow for my weekly car wash & donut, so I may take a more detailed look at the A7. As I've said before, my previous mental limit for spending money on a car, was $40ish. The Model S has somehow completely redefined that to a point where I think $80k is perfectly reasonable, but if it is, that opens up a whole spectrum of ICE cars that I'd never even considered before. I think I'm still strongly leaning towards the Mod S, and I'm hopeless at making these decisions. On one hand, I want the latest, greatest gadget, and I want it NOW. On the other hand, I don't need something the size of the Model S, so maybe a fully loaded GenIII would be the ideal car for me, but I don't want to wait. In which case, do I fill the gap with another Audi. First-world problems, I know, but this is a lot of money for me, and whilst I don't mind losing some cash on the latest TV or tablet than might cost a thousand or so, when you bump that up to $80k, it sure makes me think...
Dennis, based on your experience, how well would you say Tesla is doing with communication during this pre-order phase? Did you feel like you knew enough about what you were getting when you locked in? Were other manufacturers more or less specific? When did they offer test drives? How well did the car match up against the promises?
Note that I'm not talking reliability or even bugs. I'm talking about what they told you the car would be compared to what it ended up being, and what they didn't tell you until you got the car. You've probably got more experience with pre-ordering cars than anyone else here.
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kevincwelch
Active Member
I have to admit we've been spoiled by the upper back adjustability of our current BMW seats. Instead of the back being one solid piece with just an adjustable lumbar support, the back itself has a pivot point about 2/3 the way up - approximately below your shoulder blades. So, you can curve the upper part of the back in towards you or away to give support to your shoulders without requiring you to sit at attention like a Grenadier guard. Plus, the headrest doesn't adjust at all on Model S. I also prefer seats with more lateral support - BMW typically supplies those in with Sport Packages, and Tesla should do the same with the Performance version.
What's frustrating is that while Elon waxed poetic about how Model S's safety was more than the letter of the law on things like side intrusion (test only measures at one specific point along the side, Model S passes at any point), what I hear from Tesla employees is that if you have adjustable headrests, the test involves setting them to the wrong places for the test dummy size, and so it's harder to pass. Also, that there's a deduction for door pockets, since anything in them can fly around the cabin in a accident. Thus, striving for the absolute highest absolute safety rating is making Model S less practical and less safe.
How less safe, you might be asking? Well, instead of stowing stuff in a door pocket, it's now loose on the floor between the seats, where it's much more likely to fly about and hit me in an accident. Of course, maybe the door pocket thing isn't true.
Just to be clear, the seats aren't bad enough to make us cancel our order. Now that I've spent some time in an RC, I'd have to say that there's no one thing that will make us cancel or postpone our order. It might still, however, be a combination of things that make us postpone to give Tesla another shot.
kevincwelch
Active Member
Understood.
From my perspective, I guess it is a good thing that I am coming from a basic car without some of these luxury amenities. Perhaps the seats on drives won't affect me since they'll feel pretty familiar to me.
If Tesla made a conscious decision to eliminate the door pockets to improve crash test ratings, and if the center console is an open space (making objects more likely to fly about), it doesn't make sense to me that they wouldn't design an environment with a more enclosed space -- e.g., center console insert-style.
For me, this is not a huge issue since I don't have a whole lot in my car other than some phone charger cords and car-related documents. Admittedly, most of what is left in my cabin could be put in a small container and placed in the frunk of the Model S since it is accessed that infrequently.
I more or less like the Spartan nature of the interior, but feel some things are missing that should be there.
This sounds like a problem with the standards/testing. Perhaps that conversation should be started with folks in NHTSA?
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