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Help me understand FSD ownership

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#41
whitex said:
Your trade-in transaction is separate from their transaction selling it to a new owner.
Click to expand...

This really isn't true though.

Tesla controls the vast majority of the used Tesla resale market as I understand it. If you want a used Tesla one is likely going to go to Tesla, and get a CPO vehicle. Not always, but likely the bulk of the used Tesla sales.

So let's say you have a Tesla Model S with free supercharging for life that was assigned to the vehicle itself (before they changed the program). You know that's worth money so you expect to get something for it. To some people it's worth quite a bit of change.

But, Tesla won't give you money for it because they plan on removing it. They don't just do that with you, but everyone in the same boat. So they effectively lower the resale price of the vehicle across the board. They do because they control so much of the used Tesla market.

You might be able to sell the vehicle yourself privately, and get more money since it has free supercharging for life. But, can you do so in good conscious? You don't absolutely know that Tesla won't turn around and remove it the second it changes hands.

This is why we can't accept Tesla removing things we paid for that should be assigned to the vehicle.

Tesla is a very unique car company.

To my knowledge no car company except Tesla has offered free gas/energy for the life of the vehicle.

To my knowledge no car company except Tesla has stated that the car is capable of full self driving.

To my knowledge no car company except Tesla controls so much of their vehicles life. Sale of the new vehicle, service of the vehicle, SW updates/downgrades, sale of the used vehicle, etc.

It would probably be better if Tesla simply went the car as a service route because you never truly own one. Things like battery gate, and the fact that FSD is a promise for the future that likely won't happen for even HW3 vehicles.
 
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#42
whitex said:
If Tesla buys the car from you with FSD, your trade-in value reflects the fact that you have FSD. If Tesla values FSD at $0, then trade it in elsewhere or sell it privately (you paid for FSD so you see the value, therefore you're bound to find someone else out there who values it at more then $0). Once Tesla owns the car, they are free to do whatever they want with it, they can put steel wheels on it and sell it cheap, then sell the upgrade back to the originals. Your trade-in transaction is separate from their transaction selling it to a new owner. You negotiate yours (or in case of Tesla accept or reject their only offer), and don't worry about what they are going to do with the car - they could decide to donate it to Hollywood to be used as a stunt car which blows up in a spectacular fashion in some movie, why do you care?
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Because if potential private party buyers begin to fear that a car with FSD (or lifetime unlimited Supercharging, etc) might lose FSD, etc once it changes hands, then it will affect my resale value, giving me reason to care and reason to be wary of paying in advance for a feature that may not be delivered while I still own the car.
 
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#43
Russell said:
When you trade in your car, aren't you getting credit for FSD like you would for any other option on the car?
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Typically with options you only get about 40% to 50% of the original cost of that option when trading in the car after 3 years.

That's not going to be nearly enough for some buyers including me.

The reason is because FSD isn't a typical option. It's the promise of Full Self Driving, and the expectation that the value will appreciate over the years.

So my expectation is when/if I trade in my Model 3 I'll get 100% credit for FSD as it's priced today. Right now its $7K, and I paid $8K for EAP+FSD. So I'd expect at the very least to get $7K for it if I was to trade my Model 3 in on a Model Y.

To me it's perfectly fair because I'm trading in my HW3 upgraded vehicle in on a HW3 vehicle, and it's the same software. Why would I get any less credit than $7K.

Now I don't know how much credit people are getting for FSD. It would be interesting to find out.
 
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#44
S4WRXTTCS said:
This really isn't true though.

Tesla controls the vast majority of the used Tesla resale market as I understand it. If you want a used Tesla one is likely going to go to Tesla, and get a CPO vehicle. Not always, but likely the bulk of the used Tesla sales.

So let's say you have a Tesla Model S with free supercharging for life that was assigned to the vehicle itself (before they changed the program). You know that's worth money so you expect to get something for it. To some people it's worth quite a bit of change.

But, Tesla won't give you money for it because they plan on removing it. They don't just do that with you, but everyone in the same boat. So they effectively lower the resale price of the vehicle across the board. They do because they control so much of the used Tesla market.

You might be able to sell the vehicle yourself privately, and get more money since it has free supercharging for life. But, can you do so in good conscious? You don't absolutely know that Tesla won't turn around and remove it the second it changes hands.

This is why we can't accept Tesla removing things we paid for that should be assigned to the vehicle.

Tesla is a very unique car company.

To my knowledge no car company except Tesla has offered free gas/energy for the life of the vehicle.

To my knowledge no car company except Tesla has stated that the car is capable of full self driving.

To my knowledge no car company except Tesla controls so much of their vehicles life. Sale of the new vehicle, service of the vehicle, SW updates/downgrades, sale of the used vehicle, etc.

It would probably be better if Tesla simply went the car as a service route because you never truly own one. Things like battery gate, and the fact that FSD is a promise for the future that likely won't happen for even HW3 vehicles.
Click to expand...
You argument that Tesla controls a significant portion of the use Tesla market is correct, but not removing options is not going change that, Imagine what would happen to the use Tesla values if Tesla suddenly had a 50% off CPO sale. They can if they want to.

Them removing FUSC actually raises the value of your car when selling to anyone else but Tesla. I don't buy your argument about Tesla removing it being on your conscience - it is illegal for them to do so. Since Tesla has so much control over the car remotely, and they have recently been refusing to honor warranty such as the yellow screen, or non-maintenance parts of drive unit (e.g. $1,200 gaskets) if you want to claim the drive unit warranty, by your argument you cannot sell any Tesla to anyone in good conscience, because Tesla might pull off some unethical and/or illegal tricks on the new buyer. We can go a step further, FSD for AP2.0 will very likely never ever get delivered (read its description in my post #8), so by your logic Tesla you should be insisting that they remove FSD from those cars so that you don't feel guilty that someone got your car with FSD which will never be delivered. Or are you ok with Tesla selling a feature which will never work?
 
#45
EVNation said:
Because if potential private party buyers begin to fear that a car with FSD (or lifetime unlimited Supercharging, etc) might lose FSD, etc once it changes hands, then it will affect my resale value, giving me reason to care and reason to be wary of paying in advance for a feature that may not be delivered while I still own the car.
Click to expand...
Tesla removing FSD remotely from a car they don't own would be illegal. It doesn't mean they won't try it, but they are also trying to retroactively limit warranty coverages, and other cost cutting tricks which would likely never stand up in court. So removing FSD is only a part of what a new owner could be worried about.

That said, losing FSD (see post #8)on a pre-2019 car would not be high on the list of things to worry about, since FSD is likely to never materialize. Pre-2019 EAP includes practically all that FSD gives you, as per it's current definition.
 
#46
whitex said:
Tesla removing FSD remotely from a car they don't own would be illegal. It doesn't mean they won't try it, but they are also trying to retroactively limit warranty coverages, and other cost cutting tricks which would likely never stand up in court. So removing FSD is only a part of what a new owner could be worried about.

That said, losing FSD (see post #8)on a pre-2019 car would not be high on the list of things to worry about, since FSD is likely to never materialize. Pre-2019 EAP includes practically all that FSD gives you, as per it's current definition.
Click to expand...
Except the promise of the upgrade to HW3 included with FSD, which I haven't received yet. If I sold the car privately tomorrow for example, would Tesla honor the HW3 upgrade for the new owner? I would hope so, but I'm not 100% confident. Anyone know if the EAP only cars now have Smart Summon, Come to Me, etc and will they get "Go Park Itself" that's promised soon?
 
#47
So to be clear, in a transaction where a car changes hands in a private party sale (one person directly to another person), if the car had FUSC and FSD already in place, both of those, remain after the sale. Correct?
 
#49
2101Guy said:
So to be clear, in a transaction where a car changes hands in a private party sale (one person directly to another person), if the car had FUSC and FSD already in place, both of those, remain after the sale. Correct?
Click to expand...

No.

It's a grey area. Tesla staff say once the software-enabled feature such as FSD, Ludicrous mode... is bought, it stays with the car regardless of owners.

However, as in the recent case, Tesla could also argue that since the current privately used car owner didn't buy FSD, it could take that away until you can get some pressure from the press.

Other privately used car owners also complained that their cars came with a $20,000 Ludicrous mode but then it was taken away because Tesla claimed that the current owner didn't pay for it (Tesla never claims the prior owner didn't pay for it). I haven't heard any successful cases to get Ludicrous mode back at all so far.
 
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#51
Tam said:
That sounds like blockchain technology. All the history of options of the car and its payments will be permanently logged and won't be able to be altered or erased.
Click to expand...

It's not illegal to sell a car that doesn't match the original sticker. The tires probably are not original, someone could have replaced the rims, floor mats changed, a ICE may have had the engine chipped or upgraded, transmission replaced, etc. Wheel locks added (or removed). Spare key missing. Heck, they could throw out the back seat if they wanted to.

IMHO - Tesla has full rights to remove anything from a car before they resell it. As long as they have the car in their possession at the time. And, it doesn't have to match the window sticker of the car when it was new.
 
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#52
whitex said:
Them removing FUSC actually raises the value of your car when selling to anyone else but Tesla
Click to expand...

My point was that Tesla removing FUSC lowered the average resale price of the vehicles that had the feature.

Where the only way to get that back was to sell it directly which not only is a hassle, but it also means I have to pay more in sales tax on the new car I'm getting since I'm not trading it my old one.

So I definitely see the practice of removing FUSC as reducing the resale price of my vehicle.

As to being in good conscious. I don't think possibility of Tesla removing FUSC from the new owner prevents me from selling to them, but it is something I would feel inclined to tell them about. I should have clarified that in my post.

Thankfully I traded in my Model S with FUSC before Tesla started to delete the option from the vehicles, and before the battery gate ordeal.

The FUSC is nothing compared to what a pain in the arse battery gate would be when trying to explain it to a perspective buyer.

As you can clearly see I'm not in sales, and I wouldn't last 2 hours in sales. :p

Last time I sold something I was selling my Jeep Wrangler back to the dealer, and I went through a whole list of things to be aware of. They looked at me like I was from mars.
 
#53
sheltz32tt said:
OK. Just got off the customer support chat and "Lenine" told me when I bring my car into to get the new MCU2 in they will reactivate FSD and unlimited supercharging per the window sticker. Made the appointment, now we wait and see.
Click to expand...

I'm assuming you bought an AP2 car right since its a 2017

Hopefully you'll get free HW3 upgrade in the next few months. There is a lot of doubt that AP2 owners will ever get upgrade, but Tesla has it on there upgrade list last this year.
 
#59
Art_Vandelay said:
Check it out for yourself...

and

DashCam videos from AP2 cameras all courtesy of @Akikiki
Click to expand...

Ha, It has April 1st as the posting date.

I think I took the day off the internet. But, so glad it happened because it means it's real. So no more long massive threads of people trying to figure out what it will be or if it will ever exist.

That was a very informative thread. Thanks for linking to it. It started off with AP2.0 to HW3 upgrade, and then ended on Tuner upgrade info for MCU2. Haha.
 
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#60
S4WRXTTCS said:
To my knowledge no car company except Tesla has offered free gas/energy for the life of the vehicle.
Click to expand...

FYI- My Nissan Leaf has free charging at all Nissan Dealers selling the Leaf. In addition, Nissan offered free DC charging at 5 independent charging locations across the nation for 2 years using a special "No Charge to Charge" card on my 2019 Leaf.

I wanted that with my 2020 Tesla MS and it is a great perk, especially on long road trips. Between that and FSD are the two luxuries I love with my Tesla.

I really don't care about the clawback of Tesla subscriptions like FSD. When I bought my MS I never expected it was mine to sell.

I think the key take away from these discussions for me is when a person sells a Tesla he should never make a claim that he has the authority to sell Tesla subscriptions, lifetime or not. And if the buyer asks just say Tesla is known to audit and they may make you pay for the service as a new owner. If you make a guarantee that you can sell FSD with the car and then Tesla claws it back in a couple months, you could get sued and forced to buy the service for your buyer at the current price. If you disagree then take Tesla to court. In my mind it isn't worth the risk to make the claim based on hearsay and opinion from people on a forum. If you want to sell it then get permission in writing from Tesla. TIVO offers subscription transfers to new hardware or to new owner. I don't see that anywhere with Tesla in writing.
 
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