How much electricity does it take to produce a gallon/liter of gas/diesel?

[Fredneck]

Your use of 'small percentage' doesn't appear to match the mathematical definition of 'small' or 'percentage'. Shifting our energy for transportation, heating and electricity from fools fuel to solar or wind removes >80% of CO2 emissions. In what language is >80% referred to as a 'small percentage'?

You confuse fossil fuel use with carbon production.

 

[nwdiver]

You confuse fossil fuel use with carbon production.

..... if you eliminate the use of fools fuel for transportation, heating and electricity the amount of carbon we're adding to the biosphere declines by ~80%. Math.

 

[nwdiver]

That process is extremely inefficient. Even more so when you compress the hydrogen for storage.

When you're using surplus wind or solar to split water efficiency isn't as critical. 40% is a lot better than 0%. The amount of energy we need to store seasonally would be small. Likely <20%. Most wind and solar would be consumed directly.

 

[Fredneck]

But just imagine if everyone acted and lived like NWDiver. If they did I am sure we will see emissions dropping and not rising.

This is a bit like the national debt vs. the deficit. The deficit is the amount we have to borrow each year to balance the budget. Even if the deficit drops, the debt continues to rise.

So far the rate of global CO2 emissions has continued to rise each year other than a 0.3% decrease in 2015. So the CO2 in the atmosphere not only continues to rise, it is rising at an increasing rate.

That is my point about our efforts are puny compared to the problem. Instead of decreasing the rate of release to the atmosphere by 0.3%, we need to take significant measures. There is not enough will or backbone in all the politicians in the world put together to even address a tiny portion of the problem. Buying an electric car is not going to make even a dent in the real problem.

 

[nwdiver]

This is a bit like the national debt vs. the deficit. The deficit is the amount we have to borrow each year to balance the budget. Even if the deficit drops, the debt continues to rise.

So far the rate of global CO2 emissions has continued to rise each year other than a 0.3% decrease in 2015. So the CO2 in the atmosphere not only continues to rise, it is rising at an increasing rate.

That is my point about our efforts are puny compared to the problem. Instead of decreasing the rate of release to the atmosphere by 0.3%, we need to take significant measures. There is not enough will or backbone in all the politicians in the world put together to even address a tiny portion of the problem. Buying an electric car is not going to make even a dent in the real problem.

Ok.... so what should we do? Is not eliminating our use of fools fuel for transportation one of the many steps that must be taken????

 

[Fredneck]

..... if you eliminate the use of fools fuel for transportation, heating and electricity the amount of carbon we're adding to the biosphere declines by ~80%. Math.

80% of what? Not carbon production. You ignore the industrial use of fuels and you ignore the release of CO2 from chemical processes that aren't fuel related. The production of cement is a large one and there are many others. We have little control over this and changing it will be a slow and painful process having little to do with driving a model 3.

 

[nwdiver]

80% of what? Not carbon production. You ignore the industrial use of fuels and you ignore the release of CO2 from chemical processes that aren't fuel related. The production of cement is a large one and there are many others. We have little control over this and changing it will be a slow and painful process having little to do with driving a model 3.

Ok... so what's the number? You've provided ZERO sources. The FACTS sure seem to indicate ~80% is from fools fuel.

 

[dhrivnak]

This is a bit like the national debt vs. the deficit. The deficit is the amount we have to borrow each year to balance the budget. Even if the deficit drops, the debt continues to rise.

So far the rate of global CO2 emissions has continued to rise each year other than a 0.3% decrease in 2015. So the CO2 in the atmosphere not only continues to rise, it is rising at an increasing rate.

That is my point about our efforts are puny compared to the problem. Instead of decreasing the rate of release to the atmosphere by 0.3%, we need to take significant measures. There is not enough will or backbone in all the politicians in the world put together to even address a tiny portion of the problem. Buying an electric car is not going to make even a dent in the real problem.

I guarantee that by adding solar and driving EV will get us to a cleaner future FAR FASTER than continued reliance on fossil fuels and driving gas cars.

 

[ohmman]

Moderator note: 15 posts moved to snippiness. Many were collateral damage that lacked context once the other posts were moved away. Many had good points and facts in them, but were polluted with personal insults. Feel free to copy and paste back anything you'd like that doesn't include personal insults or other actions that don't comply with the Terms.

Thanks for understanding.

 

[Fredneck]

I guarantee that by adding solar and driving EV will get us to a cleaner future FAR FASTER than continued reliance on fossil fuels and driving gas cars.

If you look at the actual numbers and try to understand my analogy to the debt vs. deficit, you will see that while driving EVs will slow the rate of increase of CO2, it won't actually reduce the CO2 in the atmosphere at all. So the statement that installing PV solar and driving EVs will "get us to a cleaner future FAR FASTER" is factually incorrect. Without much larger measures it will get us to a demonstrably bad future more slowly.

I'm not saying EVs are bad, but they are far short of enough. I'm saying we need to continue to push and push hard to intensify the fight against carbon emissions.

 

[nwdiver]

I'm not saying EVs are bad, but they are far short of enough. I'm saying we need to continue to push and push hard to intensify the fight against carbon emissions.

???? Who said EVs where enough ?????

 

[dhrivnak]

If you look at the actual numbers and try to understand my analogy to the debt vs. deficit, you will see that while driving EVs will slow the rate of increase of CO2, it won't actually reduce the CO2 in the atmosphere at all. So the statement that installing PV solar and driving EVs will "get us to a cleaner future FAR FASTER" is factually incorrect. Without much larger measures it will get us to a demonstrably bad future more slowly.

I'm not saying EVs are bad, but they are far short of enough. I'm saying we need to continue to push and push hard to intensify the fight against carbon emissions.

I agree it is far short but it is also a necessary step. The average car puts out 1lb of CO2/mile. The average EV .25, a 75% improvement if powered from the average grid. But with over half of EV owners also going solar, the effective emissions/mile are under .13 lb/mile. Granted this is not negative, but a 87% reduction is a huge first step.

 

[Koch Killer]

And as I pointed out even if you completely eliminated the carbon released from road transportation (10.5% of all human released carbon on a global basis) the 90% remaining still needs to be addressed.

So driving an electric car doesn't do much to solve the real problem. It's barely a start.

However, it would break the economic power of the petroligarchs that fund the disinformation campaigns and that pay off the GOP to keep us from saving ourselves. Humanity HAS an enemy in the petroligarchy, its took is the GOP, it’s purpose is to sell gasoline and its power is money.

 

[Fredneck]

I agree it is far short but it is also a necessary step. The average car puts out 1lb of CO2/mile. The average EV .25, a 75% improvement if powered from the average grid. But with over half of EV owners also going solar, the effective emissions/mile are under .13 lb/mile. Granted this is not negative, but a 87% reduction is a huge first step.

I'd like to see the source information for these numbers. I would believe 50% improvement, but 75% seems a bit much. Also when someone talks about "averages" it is useful to know what group the average is taken over.

I bet the Tesla truck fouls these numbers if they end up selling many. That thing has to have very poor mileage.

 

[nwdiver]

I'd like to see the source information for these numbers. I would believe 50% improvement, but 75% seems a bit much. Also when someone talks about "averages" it is useful to know what group the average is taken over.

I bet the Tesla truck fouls these numbers if they end up selling many. That thing has to have very poor mileage.

'Odd' how deniers always quip about how they would like to see information instead of doing the research themselves and finding it. It's like cognitive dissonance is poison to intellectual curiosity. Or the lack of intellectual curiosity causes denialism. Which do you think it is?

 

[SageBrush]

'Odd' how deniers always quip about how they would like to see information instead of doing the research themselves and finding it. It's like cognitive dissonance is poison to intellectual curiosity. Or the lack of intellectual curiosity causes denialism. Which do you think it is?

Both, but

I think the denier should already know the basics before coming here to spout nonsense.

 

[dhrivnak]

I'd like to see the source information for these numbers. I would believe 50% improvement, but 75% seems a bit much. Also when someone talks about "averages" it is useful to know what group the average is taken over.

I bet the Tesla truck fouls these numbers if they end up selling many. That thing has to have very poor mileage.

The average light duty vehicle in the USA gets 22.3 mpg. If you burn a gallon of gas you get 19.8 lbs/co2 and it takes at least 4 more lbs of emissions to refine that gal for a total of 23.8 lbs.gal. So the average car spews forth 1.06 lbs/mile. The average grid in the USA produces 1 lbs CO2/kWh 1 kilowatt-hour · BlueSkyModel. The EPA rates the Model 3 at 26kW/100 miles Fuel Economy of the 2019 Tesla Model 3 Long Range putting the Model 3 .26lb/mile. In my book .26/1.06=24.3%. And many of us EV drivers have rooftop solar making the emissions far less.

As for the Tesla truck yes it will be less efficient, but compared to a 17 mpg full sized truck I would place my bet it is again 4X more efficient than it's gas counterpart.

 

[SageBrush]

The average grid in the USA produces 1 lbs CO2/kWh 1 kilowatt-hour · BlueSkyModel.

Yep.

I explained this in the same way in post #5 of this same thread

This 20% well to wheel cost of using oil (products) for transport lets us come up with a reasonable figure for vehicle transport related well to wheel (WtW) CO2 emissions: A gallon of petrol 'gasoline' releases 19.2 lbs of CO2 upon combustion. Since there were 20% losses the WtW of a gallon of petrol is 19.2/0.8 = 24 lbs of CO2 emissions. If an average passenger vehicle in the USA is is 24 mpg then CO2 emissions are one pound per mile.

What is the chance that our denier friend will get a clue this time ?

 

[dhrivnak]

We can only hope Fredneck is capable of learning.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

It's not about learning, it's about delivery, ranting and prophesizing louder rarely works.