How much gas needs to cost that EV is cheaper?

[MrMassTransit]

uh... most cities with a population greater than 100K?

There’s plenty of cities with 200-400k in population that have awful mass transit in the US. I previously worked in transit and have ridden systems all around the country. Even if a city has a bus system, routes and frequencies are very limited. You may have service Monday-Friday, but if you want to leave the house on the weekend, forget about it. If you work a shift outside of 9-5, as many low income folks do, the bus may not be running when you need to get to work or get home. As an example, look up transit service for any city outside of the three to five largest in the states of Florida, Georgia, Texas, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, or South Carolina (just to name a few states) and see if you could get from a residential area outside the city center to shopping or a job on a weekend or at 7-8 PM at night.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m a huge advocate for mass transit (even more so if it is electrified) but outside of very large cities and liberal states willing to significantly fund transit service, going without a car is extremely difficult in the United States. A lot has to do with development patterns in the US that make serving communities by transit very difficult. Such development patterns also make alternatives liking biking not viable (due to distance) or extremely dangerous (due to road design) in many cases.

There are probably not more than 150-250 cities of any size in the US where a majority of the community can be accessed by mass transit seven days per with a reasonable span of service (heck, there’s some large cities that fail that requirement!). If transit can’t provide that, then people will need to seek alternate ways of getting around, which typically involve driving. I lived without a car for over a decade (in a much smaller place than DC), but it was only viable because it was a small northeastern city that was pretty compact and dense, so biking/walking was a viable alternative for many trips. I could easily continue to do so in DC and I only take my Model 3 out for a handful of trips a month, but I’m at a point in my life where I can afford to indulge in the technology as an option, rather than a necessity for day to day needs.

 

[TLLMRRJ]

There's a very large portion of the population that only buy their cars in the $1500-2000 price range. And they are the ones that only buy used tires too.

On top of many other reasons, that significant portion of the population is why gasoline cars aren't going away anytime soon. You can't just tell them to go pound sand and have the governments ban gasoline cars because those people are the ones that keep everything running. They are the ones that clean everything, mow everything, park your cars, cook your food, etc.

As much as I like my EV, I don't hesitate to say that you will be dead before gasoline cars are dead.

 

[Rottenapplr]

So how is it possible for low income people who can't afford EV to afford gas at $40-60 for full tank. But not be able to afford an EV, that could essentially making driving way cheaper? I thought at some point, people would realize EV is cheaper, go buy EVs, and then gas stations would start lowering their price or going outta business because everyone decided they don't wanna pay $4 gallon to go 20-40 miles. But it seems some people are still driving piece of crap gas cars and still can afford $40-60 for tank of gas every week. At some point, wouldn't EV make sense for low income people, or anyone that just wants to save money? What if gas was $10 / gallon, making it $150 per full tank, I think some parts of Europe are around that.

If someone buys a $1000 car, it be like 16 fill ups and they already spent more on gas than the actual car. So even if you buy a piece of crap car, you can't buy piece of crap gas. Well you can, but its only like 20-40 cents cheaper at $3-4 gallon and that's enough to be a bargain.

I don't really know how to calculate how much it costs to charge my EV, but I always charge at night and live in OC Southern CA. My SCE electric bill is on autopay so I don't really check it, but it's usually $200-300 month. But that's for everything, so the EV is only a part of it, but I have no idea what percent is my EV charging.

Seems like you can get a used EV for around $5000
Autotrader - page unavailable

If you’re low in come will you have a place to charge it? Will your work have a charger? Or your home? I doubt it. And to me, even will 300+ mile range it would suck not having a charger.
You’re from OC SoCal, which tends to be higher income so OC definitely doesn’t represent the rest of the country. I’m in north LA in a nice suburb and I know for the rest of the people in San Fernando Valley it’s apartments and landlords which make EV less ideal.

 

[Rottenapplr]

Some people are really, really, really out of touch.

Lol exactly. Guy from Orange County California can’t understand why people can’t have his lifestyle.

 

[SlimJim]

one should not buy a premium car to save money.

 

[Candleflame]

one should not buy a premium car to save money.

The advice is always the same. Don't buy 1 (insert car here) if you can't easily afford 2 (insert car here).

It's stupid to buy a car to save money.

 

[arghx7]

you calculate the cost of 100 km driven per cent spent.

In Germany you pay 1.30 euro / litre of diesel and 30c/kwh.

So i.e. a small turbodiesel at 90km/h would use maybe 4.5L (in reality it'll probably be a bit less) of diesel, lets say 5.85 euros.
A Model 3 driving at 90km/h would probably use around 16.5kwh for 100km so that would be 4.95 euros.

So as you can see there isn't much difference and it is even more expensive to use supercharger stations.
With lots of highway driving a diesel is probably much cheaper and arguably some small petrol engines will also beat electric due to the high prices of electricity in europe.
With lots of city driving the calculations becomes very skewed i.e. due to EVs being able to charge for free in the city and being generally more efficient in city driving. In that case you can just look at your average money spent on fuel every month...

In Germany yes, but their electricity is some of the most expensive in the world. This is partly because they are winding down mostly carbon free nuclear energy. Instead they are relying on natural gas imports from Russia to supplement solar (plenty of clouds in Germany) and wind (lot of resistance to adding wind capacity there now).

In the US coal is declining quickly, nuclear is on a slow decline, while natural gas is cheap and solar/wind are increasing. So average electricity cost is something like 12 cents a kilowatt hour, and if you have a time of use plan it's under 10 cents in off peak hours. In my case, with gas at $2.50 a gallon and cheap electricity, it's basically half or less cost to put electricity in a Tesla vs a typical 25mpg car.

 

[arghx7]

One of the things our non American friends in this thread need to understand is, how can I put this delicately, there is a racial divide in the public transportation choices in this country in most areas. You will find that people of color tend to frequent the lowest cost forms of public transportation for various reasons, and those who would not be considered people of color are unlikely to use such forms of public transit.

To be blunt: White people don't take the bus dude, not in most cities, if you exclude university buses. And they don't want to add bus routes from poorer neighborhoods into their communities. They might pay for marginally useful streetcar systems but they don't actually commute with them. I'm not saying it's a good thing, it's just how it is. Public transit gets voted down, or the bus expansions are not done in a way that would make them efficient, like dedicated express bus lanes you would see in a European city. Affluent people who live near good jobs don't want to choke car traffic so that low income people can come into their neighborhoods.

 

[ewoodrick]

I don't really know how to calculate how much it costs to charge my EV, but I always charge at night and live in OC Southern CA. My SCE electric bill is on autopay so I don't really check it, but it's usually $200-300 month. But that's for everything, so the EV is only a part of it, but I have no idea what percent is my EV charging.

Price of fuel for an EV is easy.
Number of miles per kWh times cost (per kWh of electricity)
The Nissan Leaf and most of the Teslas get about 3 to 4 miles per kWh (250-330 Wh/mile)

My electricity right now is $0.06 / kWh and being winter, my cars are running about 3m/kWh
$0.06 /kWh / 3 m/kWh = $0.02 per mile

Your price of electricity in SoCal will probably be higher.

 

[jjrandorin]

At US average electric prices it’s about $10-12 to fill up a model S. Perhaps $7-8 for a 3. So, it depends on the friend. Do you charge your friends for dinner or a beer when they are crashing at your house?

"US average" electric prices actually mean nothing for these evaluations. What matters is what electricity costs where YOU live. It doesnt matter in the slightest to me that someone in another place is paying .12c a kW when electricity where "I" live starts at 19 cents and goes to 42 cents.

Just like "average gas prices" dont mean anything either. Gas HERE is like $3.75 - $3.85 a gallon for premium unleaded right now. It does not matter in the slightest to me if the cost of that gas is $2.50 somewhere else in the country.

These "average costs to own" are relative to each state and irrelevant between states imo.

 

[hugh_jassol]

this feels like bait. I’m walking away.

Yeah. Warning signs:

• Keeps money in a safe.
• Can't do basic math.
• Posts, "What's with poor people?"

 

[trm2]

Yeah. Warning signs:

• Keeps money in a safe.
• Can't do basic math.
• Posts, "What's with poor people?"

"No one can pull the wool over my eyes. Cashmere maybe, but wool, never."

 

[JBT66]

NEW cars are over priced in general. As these current gen Teslas age and drop in value, people with cost sensitivity will be able to acquire them.
With the Model 3 many more people could afford to purchase than the Model S for example. The next iteration will allow even more folks to get them. At some point to cost is still a barrier again the price for a NEW vehicle can be prohibitive to the majority, but we are seeing improvements here.

 

[tashtibet]

poor people are born poor=poor education, poor nurturing, poor opportunity=poor mindset. They are caught in vicious cycle of struggling not striving.

 

[TLLMRRJ]

NEW cars are over priced in general. As these current gen Teslas age and drop in value, people with cost sensitivity will be able to acquire them.

The big question is how useful is a Tesla going to be when it finally reaches a used car price of around $1-2K? Will it have any range left on the battery, or will it need a $5-15K battery to be useable?

Given the build quality, will a Tesla hold up like a Corolla after 15 years, or be a complete basket case?

 

[640k]

this thread. LOL.

if we're talking about people who don't budget properly, those types of people often buy more car than they can afford and don't factor in the price of gas anyway. switching to electric just complicates the matter and those same people probably buy even MORE car they can't afford and end up upside down. a lot of these people end up in repo situations, have little to no savings and are often stuck in a loop.

if we're talking about low income people who live just above the poverty line, these people generally aren't buying new cars, are buying cars at high interest rates and have prioritized other expenses such as smokes, alcohol or even day care so they can work multiple jobs.

if we're talking about people actually living at or below the poverty line, these people are buying any car they can afford and driving it until the doors fall off and are often purchasing similar awful cars, over and over, just to get by.

at the end of the day, in re: to OP's initial posting, EVs are SO FAR out of the mindset of these groups of people that the argument just doesn't apply.

 

[640k]

The big question is how useful is a Tesla going to be when it finally reaches a used car price of around $1-2K? Will it have any range left on the battery, or will it need a $5-15K battery to be useable?

Given the build quality, will a Tesla hold up like a Corolla after 15 years, or be a complete basket case?

this is the biggest "what if" i want to see be successful. assuming the car doesn't rust apart, the interior components live on, the computers, electronics and display all continue in 20-30 years and assuming the motor is basically "age-less", replacing the battery at the cost of a really affordable used car, to give your used Tesla the range it had when it was new, seems like a no-brainer.

Year: 2035
FS: 2018 Tesla M3 P3D-
250k miles on ODO
Battery now charges to 43% of max.
$2500 OBO.

Would you invest $10-15k to make that sucker run like new again, provided everything else seems ok?

 

[TLLMRRJ]

this is the biggest "what if" i want to see be successful. assuming the car doesn't rust apart, the interior components live on, the computers, electronics and display all continue in 20-30 years and assuming the motor is basically "age-less", replacing the battery at the cost of a really affordable used car, to give your used Tesla the range it had when it was new, seems like a no-brainer.

Year: 2035
FS: 2018 Tesla M3 P3D-
250k miles on ODO
Battery now charges to 43% of max.
$2500 OBO.

Would you invest $10-15k to make that sucker run like new again, provided everything else seems ok?

guarantee the suspension will be shot by then and that will be expensive. Lots of other things to wear out like the ac compressor.

Would I spend $10-15k to restore battery on a 15 year old car with 250k miles that is really old tech compared to what’s available in 2035? Hell no.

Are the people that only have $1-2k to spend on a car going to spend that? Hell no.

 

[640k]

guarantee the suspension will be shot by then and that will be expensive. Lots of other things to wear out like the ac compressor.

Would I spend $10-15k to restore battery on a 15 year old car with 250k miles that is really old tech compared to what’s available in 2035? Hell no.

Are the people that only have $1-2k to spend on a car going to spend that? Hell no.

suspension is a wear and tear item, right? it *should* have been replaced two or three times since. the rest of it, who knows. at this point, nobody does. but aging tech never stopped anyone from buying older cars. my 08 STi had 10 year old tech in it when it was brand new. this is the first car i've purchased that has had anything "modern" in it.

 

[sperkin]

OP was nice to take $425 from him instead of going through his insurance. I was scrapped in the rear bumper and I went through their insurance and pocketed close to $3,000. I just buffed out the paint from the bumper.