How much should the HOA charge? (I'm the HOA president)

[Earl]

I’ve faced this problem with condos owned by a couple of relatives and a rental property that I used to own. It can be tough and expensive, no doubt.
1st: I concur with many here in that
a) the HOA should not be expected to cover one owner’s driving costs.
b) a sustainable solution should assume most parking spaces will soon need EV charging Ian the foreseeable future, very soon in CA.
2nd: the only real sustainable solution is that the owner must pay to install a charging station at their parking stall(s), connected to their service panel and metered with their service.
a) this can be very expensive if the service panel is a long way from parking spaces. In one case of mine, that would have required going under a driveway or a public garden and sidewalks
b) this WILL INCREASE the value of each unit with as EV charging becomes a mandatory amenity by most potential owners/tenants with any financial means.
3rd: the HOA should assess the implication of 20 to 40 amp at 240 volt additional load per unit and see if the central supply transformer can handle it. If not, and the condos I’m familiar with can’t, then load sharing will be needed.
4th: I recommend the HOA obtain quotes from 1 or more electricians for installing Level 2 charging stations for each unit. The owners can then select this if they want charging. The HOA should ensure it is done to code and, ideally watching out to ensure a fair cost to owners. This may include a certified load sharing automatic transfer switch if a unit’s capacity is not sufficient.

The bad news: only 1 of the 3 HOAs I’ve been involved with has done this successfully to date.
The successful one cost my relative over $10K. I’m sure it added well more than that to the condo’s future value in addition to the convenience it adds today.

 

[father_of_6]

3rd: the HOA should assess the implication of 20 to 40 amp at 240 volt additional load per unit and see if the central supply transformer can handle it. If not, and the condos I’m familiar with can’t, then load sharing will be needed.

Just my 2 cents... load sharing might be really undesirable in the future. It makes it very unpredictable to know when your vehicle will be finished charging.

Maybe you have an important meeting or destination in the morning and everything seems on track when you plug in at night, but wake up in the morning to 10 other vehicles sharing the energy and you miss your target charge time.

 

[Earl]

sharing might be really undesirable in the future. It makes it very unpredictable to know when your vehicle will be finished charging.

Sorry, good point. I meant load sharing within your by own unit’s electrical service panel. That way, you control the load, ie make sure you finish broiling that prime rib and finish drying your laundry soon enough to be sure you have enough time to charge enough to get to your morning meeting.
The other choice may only be to bring a larger wire and transformer into the complex and upgrade your electrical panel to a higher current capability. That can run into $6 figures or more. A lot more if the existing transformer vault and conduits are too small for a larger transformer and entrance wiring.
Many in the complex likely won’t want to share the cost with you for the wiring and transformer upgrade so that’s a lot for anyone to bear.

 

[houstonian]

Maybe you have an important meeting or destination in the morning and everything seems on track when you plug in at night, but wake up in the morning to 10 other vehicles sharing the energy and you miss your target charge time.

True, but at the same time let's say there was a 100amp circuit shared with 3 charge stations capable of auto load balancing.

Assuming 240volts and a max sustained 80amp draw off the 100amp breaker there's 19.2kwh available for up to three cars.

If only one car is plugged in then there's no issue as even early S/X's could only eat up 80amps at a time and since then new Tesla's can only digest 48amps (~12kwh for all intents and purposes).

If two cars are charging you're looking at ~9.6kwh for each of them. Sure it's not as fast as 12kwh, but it's still 50% better than your average ChargePoint station delivering ~6kwh.

And if three cars are charging at the same time you're looking at 6.4kwh at the bare minimum for each car.

Reason I mention these numbers is if you know the worst case - 6.4kwh - it's still possible to plan to get to [x] charge level by [y] time. This makes it possible for EV owners to run the numbers and say I need to plug in by at least 8pm to get to [whatever] charge level by 9am the following morning. Sure, if I'm the only one who plugs in, I'll get there sooner than I otherwise thought. But worst case if two others plug in, I'll still have enough time to get enough juice to conduct my business.

PS @father_of_6 ... so I gotta ask ... are you really the father of 6? If so, well done sir!

 

[father_of_6]

Reason I mention these numbers is if you know the worst case - 6.4kwh - it's still possible to plan to get to [x] charge level by [y] time. This makes it possible for EV owners to run the numbers and say I need to plug in by at least 8pm to get to [whatever] charge level by 9am the following morning. Sure, if I'm the only one who plugs in, I'll get there sooner than I otherwise thought. But worst case if two others plug in, I'll still have enough time to get enough juice to conduct my business.

I didn't have specific numbers in mind, just imagining a scenario where there are many EVs, and you could swing from a very manageable 10kwh to .5kwh because 20 other vehicles plugged in overnight.

PS @father_of_6 ... so I gotta ask ... are you really the father of 6? If so, well done sir!

Yup

 

[ucmndd]

I’m gonna take a slightly contrarian opinion here (I know, you’re all shocked ) and say that we’re going to find the era of overnight L2 charging at home as the default solution to be pretty short-lived - particularly here in California where EV adoption is accelerating rapidly and there are significant mandates/objectives to adopt renewable energy sources.

Cutting to the chase - I fully expect utility cost structures and TOU rates to shift dramatically in the next decade or so to encourage EV charging when the sun is shining and renewables like solar and wind are producing. Yes, we’re still gonna want and need available EV charging at home - but doing it at night is going to become a lot more expensive. As a building owner or HOA president looking at potentially very significant costs to upgrade electrical service, I’d keep this in mind when gazing into the crystal ball and deciding what you’re going to invest.

 

[father_of_6]

I’m gonna take a slightly contrarian opinion here (I know, you’re all shocked ) and say that we’re going to find the era of overnight L2 charging at home as the default solution to be pretty short-lived - particularly here in California where EV adoption is accelerating rapidly and there are significant mandates/objectives to adopt renewable energy sources.

Cutting to the chase - I fully expect utility cost structures and TOU rates to shift dramatically in the next decade or so to encourage EV charging when the sun is shining and renewables like solar and wind are producing. Yes, we’re still gonna want and need available EV charging at home - but doing it at night is going to become a lot more expensive. As a building owner or HOA president looking at potentially very significant costs to upgrade electrical service, I’d keep this in mind when gazing into the crystal ball and deciding what you’re going to invest.

That does make sense. The time to fill the batteries is when the sun is shining, not when it's not.

 

[theflyer]

I’m gonna take a slightly contrarian opinion here (I know, you’re all shocked ) and say that we’re going to find the era of overnight L2 charging at home as the default solution to be pretty short-lived - particularly here in California where EV adoption is accelerating rapidly and there are significant mandates/objectives to adopt renewable energy sources.

Cutting to the chase - I fully expect utility cost structures and TOU rates to shift dramatically in the next decade or so to encourage EV charging when the sun is shining and renewables like solar and wind are producing. Yes, we’re still gonna want and need available EV charging at home - but doing it at night is going to become a lot more expensive. As a building owner or HOA president looking at potentially very significant costs to upgrade electrical service, I’d keep this in mind when gazing into the crystal ball and deciding what you’re going to invest.

I hope you are right. The hurdles I've faced as a Board president and the many horror stories I've heard while trying to solve our charging dilemma leads me to believe that many buildings won't be able to surmount the challenges. I'm continuing to seek a solution as much to create a roadmap for others as to solve our own charging needs.

Transitioning to charging during surplus renewable energy generation would solve many problems for multi-unit dwellings.

 

[zoomer0056]

It would be difficult and contentious to bill for one person's use on a community line. That would be like trying to charge him for watering his flowers using community water .... can't be done. You need to install infrastructure to bring the building up to EV charging standards. That is on HOA dime. Each charging source will have to be metered in order to bill appropriately. You guys can't be the first to do this. Do some research and see how others are doing this.

 

[Don.Church]

Take a look at Plugzio Plugzio | Affordable, Simple, Scalable EV Charging. Similar to the Orange Outlet solution, but tailored more to multi-unit dwellings.

This would allow 110v charging and bill the user directly.

We are in a condo with limited electrical infrastructure and it’s our only solution that makes financial sense.

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

Like someone said earlier, see if there’s an easy way to do a 240V 20A circuit. I’ve converted a few 120V circuits to 240V for the cost of a new breaker and electrical receptacle.

Of course the Tesla owner guy should pay for everything. He should be paying the increase in electricity costs on that HOA panel too. He sounds like he’s not the most reasonable person. Tell him to pay up or no more charging from the communal trough. He’s lucky you are being nice about this.

 

[arnolddeleon]

Just my 2 cents... load sharing might be really undesirable in the future. It makes it very unpredictable to know when your vehicle will be finished charging.

Maybe you have an important meeting or destination in the morning and everything seems on track when you plug in at night, but wake up in the morning to 10 other vehicles sharing the energy and you miss your target charge time.

PowerFlex (powerflex.com) has power sharing solutions that seem practical. They including "guaranteed" shares to make sure that a predictable amount of energy is given to each port. Basically I think it's possible to know upfront what minimum share you will get and have reasonable assurances that you will have that in the morning

 

[arnolddeleon]

I’m gonna take a slightly contrarian opinion here (I know, you’re all shocked ) and say that we’re going to find the era of overnight L2 charging at home as the default solution to be pretty short-lived - particularly here in California where EV adoption is accelerating rapidly and there are significant mandates/objectives to adopt renewable energy sources.

Cutting to the chase - I fully expect utility cost structures and TOU rates to shift dramatically in the next decade or so to encourage EV charging when the sun is shining and renewables like solar and wind are producing. Yes, we’re still gonna want and need available EV charging at home - but doing it at night is going to become a lot more expensive. As a building owner or HOA president looking at potentially very significant costs to upgrade electrical service, I’d keep this in mind when gazing into the crystal ball and deciding what you’re going to invest.

I don't think this is terribly contrarian. Charging when the sun shines makes sense. It will also make sense to charge when there is surplus wind power (which may be a night). I think the future will have "dispatchable" loads available to soak up power when it is is cheap. This means there will be utility for vehicles to be plugged in "waiting" to charge beyond their baseline needs.

The other thing that will likely continue (despite the wishes of some poor misguided, possibly useless managers and C suite holders) is remote and hybrid work. I work from mostly these days and my EVs charge during the day as rule. If I go into the office I plugged in there and let the PowerFlex managed stations "top off" the car, which is typically about the amount of energy I needed to get to work.

L2 charging at homes utility will evolve.

 

[Earl]

I’m gonna take a slightly contrarian opinion here (I know, you’re all shocked ) and say that we’re going to find the era of overnight L2 charging at home as the default solution to be pretty short-lived . . .

Sorry to contradict your view but I do agree that your points are valid even if I don’t believe they completely contradict the value of home charging.
Remember that wind energy often peaks at night, when demand is low.
The renewable aspect shows that faster charging and larger batteries that can be selective of when renewable energy is available is better than very slow charging and batteries that barely meet needs which have no choice of timing. But that’s a different issue.
I do believe, that there will always be a real value to being able to charge at home.
I have free charging at my office (it’s an employee perk to attract top talent - like me and do so often for bragging rights about my solar car as well as convenience and frugality. However, I still end up charging between 20% and 40% at home, just because of the convenience. I also use Superchargers on the road for ~10% of my use.
With the exception of the free perk at my office, office charging will always be more expensive than connecting to my normal home electric meter because another billing process will need to be paid for.
I generally look at the laundry analogy to EV charging:
- DCFC is like going to a laundromat
- pooled L2 chargers are like a coin laundry in an apartment basement
- L2 at your parking space is like having laundry in your unit.
For the land owner: which is going to be more valuable and attract better tenants and higher rents/sale price?

 

[srs5694]

Remember that wind energy often peaks at night, when demand is low.

I noticed that @ucmndd's profile specifies California as their location. According to the US DOE, California currently gets a whopping 27% of its electricity from solar, and only 7.5% from wind. I don't know what plans are for the future; it's possible that there are plans for massive wind farms off the California coast, for instance. Where I live, in Rhode Island, there's much less solar and much less wind, but I know for a fact that big off-shore wind farms are in the works, so in five or ten years we may well be getting a lot of wind power.

The point being that the optimal charging strategy to take advantage of excess "green" energy is likely to vary from one place to another. In California, charging during the day, particularly before temperatures peak, may be optimal. Here in Rhode Island, once those wind farms go on-line, we may need "smart" chargers to help us optimize our charging based on the expected wind in the near future. Efficient long-distance transmission lines might help even things out, although there are limits to how far electricity will be transmitted, at least in the next decade or two. (Maybe cheap room-temperature superconductors will change that eventually.)

 

[fholbert]

Install a commercial charging system in a common area. Charge enough to get your money back.

More EV’s are coming, this isn’t a fad.

I know California offers tax incentives for installing a commercial charger. Not sure if the feds have anything.

 

[fholbert]

More on my post above. I'm not a tax person, but it appears you can get some help from the state. I don't find one for San Francisco county, you'll need to do the research.

Alternative Fuels Data Center: California Laws and Incentives

 

[hoa_ca]

Our approach is to average the price of electricity for the building over a rolling three month period. This is the all-in price (kwh consumed divided by total bill price). We track this over time. We add a cent or two and this is what we charge our EV owners who use a 110v circuit that is owned by the Association.

As others suggested above, we install a cheap consumer energy meter to track the electricity use. The EV owner has to pay for the meter and it's installation. Make sure to find one that tracks usage beyond 1 MWh. We had to learn this lesson the hard way.

We put the meter in a locked acrylic container so it can't be reset.

This approach has worked well for us. Using the average price addresses the peak/off peak issue well enough.

View attachment 945602

hi

thanks for the info, that helps.
but the owner will have to understand that the car is not really capable not to charge during peak/off peak and accept the average price.

hi Tesla owners,

I'm the president of the small HOA in San Francisco (not tesla owner myself)
and we have a new Tesla owner in the building.
Owner plugged the car on the HOA 110V outlet in the garage,
then we discovered that and are now figuring out a fair price to bill the owner.
As the car consumes 2x more than the entire HOA line, our bill tripled!

It's complicated ... could you help?

Ideally, the owner would install a separate line for the car.
We're ok with it, electricity is in the same garage as the car anyway.
Owner refuses to pay for it.

So if we share the HOA line:
1. First we have the on peak/off peak prices problem:
owner says the car is programmed to only charge off peak,
but we see a huge consumption during peak hours. ideas?
Can the UI of the car cause owners to misunderstand?

2. Also, owner does not understand why the amount reported
by the tesla app is far from the energy we clearly see is used
compared to before the car was plugged.
We're a small HOA, the power line is only used for lights and
a gas heated washing machine, so it's super predictable.
From my reading I understand the 110V is 80% efficient,
it would mean we should charge 25% more than reported by the tesla app?
Or should we use a power meter plug to measure?
(any links to a good reliable cheap smart meter that can handle that wattage?)

here's our proposal to the owner, what do you think?:

- ok for charging you off-peak rates, but we have to see
the on-peak usage go back to normal, because right now
it's much higher (x1.7) than before so you're probably charging at all hours.

- we can take your app screenshots as reference,
but it reports the energy charged in your battery,
not the energy consumed and paid by the HOA.
We need to multiply that by x1.25
that means in PG&E rates x1.25:
0.475$ in low season and 0.5375$ in high season.
or you buy a power meter plug, use it as reference
and you pay 0.38$ in low season and 0.43$ in high season.

Currently owners agrees to pay 32c and thinks
we're trying to take advantage of the situation
because it's far from what the tesla app shows.

Second problem is a level 2 charger:
Our building has an old grid, it's 110V only.
Owner would like us to upgrade the grid to plug a level 2 charger.
But the HOA does not need to upgrade yet.
Sure electricity usage is increasing as people add appliances,
but we're likely good for many many years.
When and if it happens, how much should the owner pay for the upgrade?

thanks for your advices

hi

I should have specified our HOA has a single garage,
The garage is owned by the HOA, that's why the outlet is the HOA's outlet.
but it is for exclusive use of this owner.
So no more EV is expected, just this one.

To recap your proposals, at least the ones applicable to our HOA:
- a separate PGE Account for the car would be ideal for all.
- I have to tell the owner that the "no peak" tesla setting
does not in fact prevent the car from charging on peak,
it's just a preference that's not very useful on 110V
- the kwh data from the tesla is not measuring the loss of the charger.
I should either propose to add 25% to the data measured by the tesla
or use a wall meter.
- a cheap kill-a-watt meter would work, but may be destroyed over time.
any brand/model you recommend as an alternative? with wifi or bluetooth?
the owner has to buy it, but I can at least provide links.

I like the Affordable EV Charging at Apartments but at 20$/month
the owner won't like it, and for a single owner it's just useful as a fancy meter.

Upgrading the entire building electrical system to have 240V lines
would indeed be great for the tesla owner, but why would the HOA
pay for that costly upgrade when no other owner will use it?
We have 98y retired ladies that barely make ends meet in our building ...

thanks

 

[arnolddeleon]

My summary for @hoa_ca for the most practical solution for them is probably install the one of the "smart outlets" that were recommended in the thread:

Plugzio
Plugzio | Affordable, Simple, Scalable EV Charging by @Don.Church

Orange Outlet
Affordable EV Charging at Apartments by @srs5694

Both are around $500 for the hardware and install would be next to trivial since there is already an existing outlet that is being used for charging. Either can be installed in 15 minutes by an electrician. They both appear to have reasonable monthly costs. Orange Outlet charges $20/month or zero if there is no usage. Plugzio appears to include the first year or two of subscription costs. Orange charges 5% commission, Plugzio is 0%. If you stop paying for the plugzio subscription it just becomes an always on outlet. And both are both obviously trivial to remove in the future.

You need to work out who pays for the hardware/install cost. If the outlet in question is shared outlet then you could make the case that becomes a shared amenity and HOA pays. The beauty of both of these solutions is they are self funding in the long run and user pays for the energy they consume.

This allows the issue to be resolved quickly and reasonably fairly. The HOA can plan will then have time to figure out a longer term solution. Both of these products could become the long term solution or can pursue something else.

 

[rdskill]

I think the Tesla app only tracks the amount of charge that reached the battery. 120v isn't that efficient. However, charging at 120V 20A is more efficient then a 120V 15A circuit. The Tesla charger will limit itself to 80% of the available amperage unless the plug gets hot or there is a voltage drop, then it will reduce the draw. I've seen it drop from 16A to as little as 4A while charging on a 20A circuit.

Today I charged at work and this shows how much I used versus how much made it to the battery...

This is from Teslafi.com which gets the telemetry from my car via way of my Tesla account. As you can see, it's only 82.3% efficient on the 120V 20A circuit I used today. I think on a 120V 16A circuit its around high 60's... Maybe like 67% efficient.

I would not recommend some lightweight watt meter. The heat buildup of drawing 16A for 9-12 hours or more (80% of a 20A = 16A) could melt it.

I think you are bending over backwards for the guy. He should pay for a separate line rated for extended charging at 80% of the circuits rating. While some states say you have to require the owner to charge, I am sure they have to foot the bill. You should check the ChargePoint website as they have advice for multi-unit homes.

I would also encourage you to explore having the association upgrade to support EV charging as a way to increase your property values.

Good Luck!