How much should the HOA charge? (I'm the HOA president)

[KerrySkates]

HOA’s - where there is one building sharing resources - need to get ahead of the curve here. Wake up and realize this is going to become a problem if you don’t have a plan in place for existing and new residents. EVs are going to continue to become more common.

Why hasn’t the HOA considered EV charging by now and why isn’t there verbiage about what to do as a renter? Have you updated agreements?

This doesn’t mean the renter was morally or ethically correct in their actions. They, too, should have engaged the HOA in regards to how they would charge their vehicle before installing anything.

Idk what any of it means from a legal standpoint, but my guess is that if the HOA didn’t cover that scenario before, then you can only change things going forward and the renter doesn’t owe back pay.

The renter should pay. I would follow the law and move to protect the HOA in the future.

 

[rdskill]

To recap your proposals, at least the ones applicable to our HOA:
- a separate PGE Account for the car would be ideal for all.
- I have to tell the owner that the "no peak" tesla setting
does not in fact prevent the car from charging on peak,
it's just a preference that's not very useful on 110V
- the kwh data from the tesla is not measuring the loss of the charger.
I should either propose to add 25% to the data measured by the tesla
or use a wall meter.
- a cheap kill-a-watt meter would work, but may be destroyed over time.
any brand/model you recommend as an alternative? with wifi or bluetooth?
the owner has to buy it, but I can at least provide links.

I've seen inexpensive "timer" switches. you push in pins for the hours you want the a/c to flow. This in conjunction with kill-a-watt might work even if a bit of a kluge.

This shows what you can pick up at walmart. I see $10 15A "tough" switches here:

Walmart - Results for "timer plug"​

​

On the Tesla app you can set the max draw. He could set if for 10 amps.

 

[dafish]

Wow, a responsible HOA and an owner that’s being reasonable. Nice to see the roles flip.
I would tell the Tesla owner he wasn’t being asked, he was required to hardwire to a 240 EVSE, and then I would run an emporia energy monitor on the line. I’d charge him $50 a month to manage the reporting and correlation to TOU cost. Or he can pay for his own meter. Pick 1.

btw, 120v charging is insane, no way he’s only drawing off-peak. as I recall you can prefer off rate, you can’t set it to only use it.

 

[Don.Church]

I've seen inexpensive "timer" switches. you push in pins for the hours you want the a/c to flow. This in conjunction with kill-a-watt might work even if a bit of a kluge.

This shows what you can pick up at walmart. I see $10 15A "tough" switches here:

Walmart - Results for "timer plug"​

​

On the Tesla app you can set the max draw. He could set if for 10 amps.

I realize you are proposing cheaper alternatives, but with an EV pulling full load the whole time it is charging (hours?), I would not trust a “tough” switch or a timer plug. I agree that it doesn’t need to be an elaborate system, but I wouldn’t skimp on the electrical components.

 

[miimura]

hi

thanks for the info, that helps.
but the owner will have to understand that the car is not really capable not to charge during peak/off peak and accept the average price.

hi

I should have specified our HOA has a single garage,
The garage is owned by the HOA, that's why the outlet is the HOA's outlet.
but it is for exclusive use of this owner.
So no more EV is expected, just this one.

To recap your proposals, at least the ones applicable to our HOA:
- a separate PGE Account for the car would be ideal for all.
- I have to tell the owner that the "no peak" tesla setting
does not in fact prevent the car from charging on peak,
it's just a preference that's not very useful on 110V
- the kwh data from the tesla is not measuring the loss of the charger.
I should either propose to add 25% to the data measured by the tesla
or use a wall meter.
- a cheap kill-a-watt meter would work, but may be destroyed over time.
any brand/model you recommend as an alternative? with wifi or bluetooth?
the owner has to buy it, but I can at least provide links.

I like the Affordable EV Charging at Apartments but at 20$/month
the owner won't like it, and for a single owner it's just useful as a fancy meter.

Upgrading the entire building electrical system to have 240V lines
would indeed be great for the tesla owner, but why would the HOA
pay for that costly upgrade when no other owner will use it?
We have 98y retired ladies that barely make ends meet in our building ...

thanks

I applaud you for your attitude and the way you appear to be approaching this situation. I have been the President of a California HOA, so I can appreciate the situation.

How many units are in the association? I understand that you have older owners on a fixed income, but they will not live forever and the next owner/renter may be much more likely to have an EV. So, I would look at the overall building situation and plan appropriately. If you have 5 or more units, I would strongly suggest that you look into the rebates available and the possibility of installing load shared EVSE for each unit's parking space. You don't have to install more than the current need, but you should understand what that eventual situation will look like.

In San Francisco, you may have common area loads that are only 120VAC, but it would be extremely rare for the PG&E meter to be only capable of 120VAC. I am pretty certain that your common area meter and circuit breaker panel can support 240V loads. Also, it is very common for all the meters for the units and the common area to be in one place. If that meter area is relatively close to the parking area, the best solution may be for the owner to have an electrician pull a circuit from their meter to their parking space. It may look daunting because the main panel for the unit may not be near the meter, but it can be done as long as the space around the meters is not super tight. One solution for this situation is to put a new breaker panel next to the meter and make the panel in the unit a sub-panel of this new panel. This type of installation can also accommodate load sharing between the unit and the charging station, but that does cost more. Also, if the existing common are outlet at the owner's parking space is a dedicated circuit where it's the only outlet on the circuit breaker, it can be converted to 240V and a proper EVSE with built-in metering (like ChargePoint Home Flex) can be installed to charge faster and report kWh delivered to the vehicle.

If you really want to cover the association legally, you may also want to look into whether it is legal for the association to "sell" the common area electricity to the owner based on kWh consumed. I'm not saying this to provide an excuse to cut off the EV owner, but rather to encourage a proper solution where the EV charging is delivered from the owner's electric meter instead of the HOA's meter.

 

[tm1v2]

If you really want to cover the association legally, you may also want to look into whether it is legal for the association to "sell" the common area electricity to the owner based on kWh consumed. I'm not saying this to provide an excuse to cut off the EV owner, but rather to encourage a proper solution where the EV charging is delivered from the owner's electric meter instead of the HOA's meter.

This is an especially good point that I don't think was raised before in this thread.

It should (ahem, "should") be legal for an HOA to charge for common area HOA supplied EV charging, much like an HOA with common area laundry charging per use. However, there are tax implications for those kinds of revenue streams.

If your HOA's only revenue sources right now are member dues and financial account interest, then adding a pay-per-use revenue source like this will probably complicate the HOA's tax returns and expense tracking, especially if you're allowed to deduct the business expenses of operating the charging (which hopefully you can). If the HOA makes any profit at all in the pay-for-use EV charging operation, which it should to ensure expenses are covered!, then the HOA will probably have non-zero tax bills if it doesn't already.

Important disclaimer: I've no personal experience with pay-per-use HOA services! My HOA doesn't have any. This is just what I recall from very briefly looking into the implications of them years ago. Please simply use this post as advice on stuff to look into, nothing more.

 

[tm1v2]

Also look into whether your governing documents would prohibit a pay-per-use EV charging service. Update them if needed.

I don't know if pay-per-use services are typically discussed in CC&R's or not, since as mentioned my HOA doesn't have any such services. You should figure that out if you go down that path. It might be that even if your docs don't prohibit such a thing, there is content you should add to best protect the HOA and serve its members.

 

[Concerned]

hi Tesla owners,

I'm the president of the small HOA in San Francisco (not tesla owner myself)
and we have a new Tesla owner in the building.
Owner plugged the car on the HOA 110V outlet in the garage,
then we discovered that and are now figuring out a fair price to bill the owner.
As the car consumes 2x more than the entire HOA line, our bill tripled!

It's complicated ... could you help?

Ideally, the owner would install a separate line for the car.
We're ok with it, electricity is in the same garage as the car anyway.
Owner refuses to pay for it.

So if we share the HOA line:
1. First we have the on peak/off peak prices problem:
owner says the car is programmed to only charge off peak,
but we see a huge consumption during peak hours. ideas?
Can the UI of the car cause owners to misunderstand?

2. Also, owner does not understand why the amount reported
by the tesla app is far from the energy we clearly see is used
compared to before the car was plugged.
We're a small HOA, the power line is only used for lights and
a gas heated washing machine, so it's super predictable.
From my reading I understand the 110V is 80% efficient,
it would mean we should charge 25% more than reported by the tesla app?
Or should we use a power meter plug to measure?
(any links to a good reliable cheap smart meter that can handle that wattage?)

here's our proposal to the owner, what do you think?:

- ok for charging you off-peak rates, but we have to see
the on-peak usage go back to normal, because right now
it's much higher (x1.7) than before so you're probably charging at all hours.

- we can take your app screenshots as reference,
but it reports the energy charged in your battery,
not the energy consumed and paid by the HOA.
We need to multiply that by x1.25
that means in PG&E rates x1.25:
0.475$ in low season and 0.5375$ in high season.
or you buy a power meter plug, use it as reference
and you pay 0.38$ in low season and 0.43$ in high season.

Currently owners agrees to pay 32c and thinks
we're trying to take advantage of the situation
because it's far from what the tesla app shows.

Second problem is a level 2 charger:
Our building has an old grid, it's 110V only.
Owner would like us to upgrade the grid to plug a level 2 charger.
But the HOA does not need to upgrade yet.
Sure electricity usage is increasing as people add appliances,
but we're likely good for many many years.
When and if it happens, how much should the owner pay for the upgrade?

thanks for your advices

I’d suggest that you ask the Tesla owner to cover the Installation of a Tesla universal wall pack, ~$600 plus labor plus the circuit costs…. Say $2000 all in. That’s the level 2 they’re asking for anyhow, Set up a commercial power agreement with Tesla and let them handle the transactions and then they pay you the energy costs quarterly.. and likely remove / lock / restrict the 120 volt circuit.. ( this would also need WiFi to function. ). that way you don’t have to chase individual vehicle owners and money.. the Wall Pack can be assigned to only one car if required or any.. If you consider this an investment you could split the costs.. another benefit is the Tesla technology allows for sharing of a limited power source so as not to force you to do a wholesale upgrade.. if your service or panel only has 30 or 40 amperes, say 10 kVA or less, you can share that amongst two, maybe three users.. I’d assume 5 KVA as a minimal value to reasonably share.

 

[Lloyd]

Chargepoint has an option for you as well. Users pay for use, and chargepoint reimburses the HOA for the electricity used plus a small profit depending on the price you wish to charge.

EV Charging Solutions for Apartments | ChargePoint

Attract and retain valuable residents to your multifamily apartment community with the leading EV charging brand in North America.

www.chargepoint.com

 

[theflyer]

Chargepoint has an option for you as well. Users pay for use, and chargepoint reimburses the HOA for the electricity used plus a small profit depending on the price you wish to charge.

EV Charging Solutions for Apartments | ChargePoint

Attract and retain valuable residents to your multifamily apartment community with the leading EV charging brand in North America.

www.chargepoint.com

There are many options that allow associations to set the per kWh price, receive quarterly checks for that revenue, and set other policies. Most offer some form of load balancing as well. Make sure to understand transaction fee structures and monthly costs per EVSE.

This post has links

There are many solutions to the problem of managing loads.

One specifically designed for condos is this: DCC-9 | Charge controller for electric vehicles | RVE

This is applicable where the physical layout allows for tapping in to each tenant's meter and running power out to a dedicated parking spot. It also solves the problem of cost recovery, because it is using power from their own meter rather than a common one.

Here are some other more general options and solution providers:

EverCharge - Electric Vehicle (EV) Charging Solutions For Multi-Family Residential Communities

The only fully-managed EV charging solution designed for multi-family residential communities.

evercharge.com

Commercial EV Charging Solutions Powered by Clean Technology | PowerFlex

PowerFlex delivers EV charging solutions for leaders making the transformation to carbon-free electrification and transportation possible.

www.powerflex.com

Level 2 EV Chargers | Atom Power | 48A 80A

Atom EV Level 2 chargers are powered by our patented, software-defined solid-state digital circuit breaker, providing the highest levels of reliability, scalability, and security.

www.atompower.com

SWTCH EV Charging Solution: Multifamily Properties

swtchenergy.com

These two don't necessarily solve the load sharing problem, but they do resolve the cost recovery problem:

Orange Outlet - Affordable, Profitable EV Charging

Orange Outlet is the most cost-effective way to turn charging from an expensive amenity to a revenue-generating profit center at any multi-unit property.

www.orangecharger.com

Plugzio | Affordable, Simple, Scalable EV Charging

Plugzio is the most affordable & scalable way to control, monitor & get compensated for electricity usage in a property often using existing infrastructure.

www.plugzio.com

Not mentioned in that post

• Tesla Commercial (minimum of four EVSEs) - has no monthly fees, just a 1 cent per kWh delivered fee. [email protected]

 

[Concerned]

Hire an engineer that isn’t beholden to the sales of a specific product.. I don’t want to disparage any of these small companies, yet we’ve moved away from several of them to a Tesla hosted solution for good reasons.

 

[theflyer]

Hire an engineer that isn’t beholden to the sales of a specific product.. I don’t want to disparage any of these small companies, yet we’ve moved away from several of them to a Tesla hosted solution for good reasons.

Same.

 

[MP3Mike]

Tesla Commercial (minimum of four EVSEs)

I thought the minimum number of Wall Connectors was 6. And that you have to have at least 36A of capacity. (A minimum of 6A per Wall Connector.)

 

[Concerned]

I thought the minimum number of Wall Connectors was 6. And that you have to have at least 48A of capacity. (A minimum of 8A per Wall Connector.)

Contractually Tesla wants a minimum of four…. For them to manage the program. if you have 6 devices you need a minimum of 48 amperes.. but you can load share with only two, a leader and a follower. And you can load share on a single 30 ampere circuit if you chose to do so. there are various combinations of load sharing for Tesla’s current UWP from 2 - 6. Devices. They do want a minimum of I believe 12 amperes per device, although you may be correct at 8.

 

[FatFalcon]

Just FYI: Forget about the Kill-A-Watt meter. It can monitor 12A for short periods of time, but it will 100% burn out with extended 12A usage. I've killed several. The thermal fuse blows.

Here's the no-cost solution which I use with my rental situation. The first of every month I send a screenshot of the 'charging' screen of my Tesla app, which includes my home kWh usage (it will differentiate home vs work vs supercharging vs 'other') . I pay that amount x the agreed energy rate.

In the case of on-peak v.s. off peak with 120V charging, I think it's fair take the hourly-average of those two values and use that single value. So if it's 10c per kwh for 8 hours of off-peak and 30c per kwh for the other 16 hours, just call it a flat-rate of 25 cents per kwh ( (30x16)+(10x12) / 24hours ). It will be slightly advantageous to the landlord (since most charging is done at night regardless of off/on peak), but that difference should take care of the extra administrative cost. As an EV owner I would be totally OK with that simple solution. This could be done monthly, or even annually.

With 240V charging which can easily complete off-peak, I would just charge the off-peak rate and do some periodic monitoring to make sure they have that setting turned on.

 

[MP3Mike]

Contractually Tesla wants a minimum of four….

When is that from? Their web site says 6: https://www.tesla.com/charging-partners

And on the sign-up page where you can opt in to pay-per-use: Commercial Services Registration - Formstack

They do want a minimum of I believe 12 amperes per device, although you may be correct at 8.

I looked it up, it is actually 6A per wall connector.

 

[Eric33432]

Many in the complex likely won’t want to share the cost with you for the wiring and transformer upgrade so that’s a lot for anyone to bear.

Until the "Many" decide they want an EV!

Facts:

1. OP said they only have 120 volts for their garage. While I agree that is not common, and they might have 240, until he says otherwise, I am going with what he said.

2. I think OP also said that the Tesla owner is cheap thrifty, does not want to pay anything to install a new meter, new service, or even a new circuit. Maybe s/he is planning on not living there for too long? Of course, the HOA can try and force that on him/her, but if s/he is happy with 120 volt charging, why do that?

3. Tesla owner charging at 120 volts needs to charge during peak, off peak, probably pretty much all the time. Maybe a 15 amp circuit, maybe a 20 amp circuit.

4. OP says there will be no more EVs. At least in the forceable future. It is unlikely they want to go with something complicated.

Why not calculate the average cost per kWh, (total bill ÷ total kWh) and come up with a blended rate for peak and off peak. Try a simple meter, like the Kill-o-watt see if it works.

Or, simply determine the number of hours the car will be plugged in, and charge the hours times 1.44kW (15 amp circuit) or 1.92kW (20 amp circuit) times the blended rate per kWh.

I did that at one of my radio stations when I rented space to another station at one of my towers. Amps times 208 volts times 1.73 (it was 3 phase service) = kWh used times number of hours a month (I used 24 x 365 ÷ 12 = 730 hours/month). I know that does not take into account the power factor, but it the PF was almost 0.98, so almost 1. I determined the blended rate (of kWh and kW demand) by simply dividing the total amount of the monthly bill by the total kWh used. Everyone seemed happy with this.

 

[Earl]

Until the "Many" decide they want an EV!

Unfortunately, one of the condos with which I'm familiar is infested with has a lot of single retired women who scream "I'm on a fixed income" every time the association even wants to raise the association dues just to meet cost increases due to inflation. They have no idea what an EV is, nor do they care.
The service entrance there barely covers unit consumption with all of today's appliances so a huge investment of a new transformer including digging a larger vault and burying a lot bigger conduit will be essential for any EV charging to be added.
I've completely given up on trying to help with that situation.

 

[theflyer]

When is that from? Their web site says 6: https://www.tesla.com/charging-partners

View attachment 1011046

And on the sign-up page where you can opt in to pay-per-use: Commercial Services Registration - Formstack

View attachment 1011047

I looked it up, it is actually 6A per wall connector.

I am in direct communication with them and they softened that requirement to four. Don't know why they haven't updated the site. We will be installing four universal HPWCs under this program.

 

[theflyer]

Until the "Many" decide they want an EV!

Facts:

1. OP said they only have 120 volts for their garage. While I agree that is not common, and they might have 240, until he says otherwise, I am going with what he said.

Orange Outlets or even a cheap meter from Amazon can work in this scenario. We have several cars charging this way.

2. I think OP also said that the Tesla owner is cheap thrifty, does not want to pay anything to install a new meter, new service, or even a new circuit. Maybe s/he is planning on not living there for too long? Of course, the HOA can try and force that on him/her, but if s/he is happy with 120 volt charging, why do that?

This is all too common. Some people think everything should be free. Can't solve this problem.

3. Tesla owner charging at 120 volts needs to charge during peak, off peak, probably pretty much all the time. Maybe a 15 amp circuit, maybe a 20 amp circuit.

4. OP says there will be no more EVs. At least in the forceable future. It is unlikely they want to go with something complicated.

Why not calculate the average cost per kWh, (total bill ÷ total kWh) and come up with a blended rate for peak and off peak. Try a simple meter, like the Kill-o-watt see if it works.

A blended "all-in" rate is what we did for the EVs that currently charge off 110v outlets at our Association. It's worked well for years. We are out of circuits now.

We install a cheap consumer meter at the outlets where charging occurs and read that meter once per quarter. Then, bill the user for the kWhs consumed at the agreed-upon blended rate. We put the meter in an locked acrylic case, so it can't be reset. Less than $100 to get this setup working at an outlet.

Or, simply determine the number of hours the car will be plugged in, and charge the hours times 1.44kW (15 amp circuit) or 1.92kW (20 amp circuit) times the blended rate per kWh.

I did that at one of my radio stations when I rented space to another station at one of my towers. Amps times 208 volts times 1.73 (it was 3 phase service) = kWh used times number of hours a month (I used 24 x 365 ÷ 12 = 730 hours/month). I know that does not take into account the power factor, but it the PF was almost 0.98, so almost 1. I determined the blended rate (of kWh and kW demand) by simply dividing the total amount of the monthly bill by the total kWh used. Everyone seemed happy with this.