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anticitizen13.7
Not posting at TMC after 9/17/2018
It's getting a too bit hostile in the Investor's Forum lately. I think I'm going to take a brake, but I'll be around in the Model X and other sub-forums.
All I gotta say is that no customer likes to be left in the dark, and a business with good service will let customers know what's going on if there's a delay. Price is irrelevant: makes no difference if it's a $1 coffee or a $100,000 automobile.
I don't think Elon and Tesla intend to make customers angry. They should be aware though that company practices at present are making some customers angry, and I see the venting here as feedback.
All I gotta say is that no customer likes to be left in the dark, and a business with good service will let customers know what's going on if there's a delay. Price is irrelevant: makes no difference if it's a $1 coffee or a $100,000 automobile.
I don't think Elon and Tesla intend to make customers angry. They should be aware though that company practices at present are making some customers angry, and I see the venting here as feedback.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
I think you are correct. But I think the relatively few customers that are actually "angry" are less of a problem than what I believe is a far greater number of customers who have gone from feeling deliriously happy and excited about Tesla and the purchase of their vehicles to feeling only lukewarm towards Tesla. The posters saying we have no where else to turn, and will keep our cars, and not cancel our orders are correct. For now. But that negative shift in attitude in a very large number of customers has a huge cost associated with it that I fear Tesla is underestimating.
Customers who have undergone the mentality shift I am talking about would never have considered a vehicle other than a Tesla in five years, when there actually are other choices. Now I guarantee you they will. These customers are doing far less advocating for Tesla now than they once were. What's the cost of that? What will the cost of that be in a couple of years, when Tesla is trying to really move the Model 3?
Yes, it would have cost Tesla a bit to have kept these customers as happy as they once were with Tesla. I am convinced that it would have been money well spent.
This also isn't a new development that just started recently with how Tesla has been handling the X launch, as I believe most people know. I thought this was a serious issue more than six months ago, and even started a poll to see how members here--some of Tesla's most ardent supporters--felt.
Has the way you feel about Tesla changed the way you speak about Tesla to others?
Currently more than 27% of those who have responded chose the response "I am less happy with Tesla than before. I sing Tesla's praises to others less often than I used to."
I think that is saying something, and not something Tesla should want to hear.
CarlK
Active Member
Another "loyal" customer got p'd because he could not get the car he wants. Soon as he received his car everything will be forgotten and he will become "loyal" again. Nothing to see here. Just some people confusing entitlement to loyalty.
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This is a little different from the "high touch" model you were advocating upthread.
As I said earlier, I can name a dozen things Tesla could improve in marketing and communications both to the customer base and to the market. I do, however, take issue with the the "Elon doesn't care" narrative some folks want to promote--this is a critical juncture for the company and some recognition of that can help balance the disappointment.
If these things are so easy, why don't you think Elon & Co. do them--do you really think they sit around in staff on Mondays and find new way to be spiteful and irritate owners?
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Seems a bit familiar. http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/451-Delays
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/2251-Refunds-on-Roadster-Deposit
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/586-Delay-Hits-Home
I'm sure this thread will give it a nice boost :wink:
That would be foolish since Elon clearly stated that won't be happening. Wanting information is reasonable but ignoring it when available is not. You also seem to be missing the fact that in his own way Elon has basically acknowledge that the X has been ill handled from it's inception. He says it in engineer speak not customer relations speak but the message is clear.
Not saying your general concerns don't have merit but I do think some of the specifics you are asking for are unrealistic and unnecessary. Weekly video updates? I don't need that much hand holding. After I place my deposit for the Model 3 I expect to have almost no direct communication from Tesla for over a year other than occasional generic updates.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
You may not need the weekly videos, but they'd be an inexpensive way to keep people engaged, and build enthusiasm. Weekly (or bi-weekly) videos would probably result in additional orders being placed as more people would be exposed to the Model 3. I don't see any way that the time and effort spent on a project like that wouldn't be a net positive for Tesla. Customers like you who don't want or need the videos won't watch them, or will, but won't really care. But some customers and potential customers might really enjoy them, and possibly become Tesla customers for life.
In my opinion if Tesla doesn't do this, or something very much like this, it will be an opportunity missed.
Agree with your view on weekly updates. My view on these would be that most ordinary folks who do not really care about Tesla, Elon, Mission, just want a car and no car irrelevant communication sent to them.
Some folks might enjoy updates from Tesla, but such folks can subscribe to google alerts or other Tesla subscribable communications.
Unsolicited communications from Tesla to customers should be relevant to customers. The only relevant communication to some folks is the date they can pick up their car. Anything else might be taken in many different ways.
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JRP3
Hyperactive Member
That rather seems to depend on the assumption that Tesla will need to drive demand for the Model 3. I don't think that will be the case. Tesla is going to be production constrained on the Model 3 for years.
If Tesla does as suggested, send weekly videos to unwilling recipients, that seems very much like pushing advertisements onto them, sure way to alienate some folks.
I also think it is illegal to not let people opt out of unsolicited communications.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
No matter how simple it seems to put together an update weekly, it isn't. Coming up with topics when you're in the middle of just slogging through things is tough. Sharing info when a market is antsy is tough. Getting engineers to spend some time talking to you about progress is tough when they're on critical path and just don't have time to deal with you and a a video camera. Then Legal needs to look at it, because this is a public company after all. Published & now there are customers not satisfied with the content because they feel there should be more ...
I'd have to vote no on an idea like this. Sure, some updates would be nice. Committing to a schedule? No. Helllll no. No no no. First time it's missed people are freaking out. (And if anyone disagrees with that statement, then you're obviously new to this forum.) Never mind that the person who handles that is on vacation or had a family emergency. 'Cause c'mon, how hard could it be to throw some fresh meat at this cage of lions every couple of weeks?
(Or a nice fruit basket, for the non-carnivores.)
The idea is nice. The unintended consequences just too much.
I'd have to vote no on an idea like this. Sure, some updates would be nice. Committing to a schedule? No. Helllll no. No no no. First time it's missed people are freaking out. (And if anyone disagrees with that statement, then you're obviously new to this forum.) Never mind that the person who handles that is on vacation or had a family emergency. 'Cause c'mon, how hard could it be to throw some fresh meat at this cage of lions every couple of weeks?
(Or a nice fruit basket, for the non-carnivores.)The idea is nice. The unintended consequences just too much.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
Who said anything about not letting people opt out?
Tesla already sends customers e-mail communications, and they cover the whole "opt-out" issue. They are going to be covering that issue for their Model 3 reservation holders whether they produce any videos or not.
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No matter how simple it seems to put together an update weekly, it isn't. Coming up with topics when you're in the middle of just slogging through things is tough. Sharing info when a market is antsy is tough. Getting engineers to spend some time talking to you about progress is tough when they're on critical path and just don't have time to deal with you and a a video camera. Then Legal needs to look at it, because this is a public company after all. Published & now there are customers not satisfied with the content because they feel there should be more ...
I'd have to vote no on an idea like this. Sure, some updates would be nice. Committing to a schedule? No. Helllll no. No no no. First time it's missed people are freaking out. (And if anyone disagrees with that statement, then you're obviously new to this forum.) Never mind that the person who handles that is on vacation or had a family emergency. 'Cause c'mon, how hard could it be to throw some fresh meat at this cage of lions every couple of weeks?
The idea is nice. The unintended consequences just too much.
It's the general concept that I'm advocating for.
I can see your points about why a set schedule could be problematic. And perhaps the weekly or even bi-weekly schedule would be pushing things with respect to coming up with fresh material. But I still think in general some sort of video communication, on a semi-regular basis would be a net positive. Customers with reservations would share the videos with friends and relatives, and help build momentum, buzz, etc. for the Model 3.
As for JRP3's comment about supply being production constrained for some time, I can't imagine that Tesla wouldn't want to be having demand for the Model 3 building, even if the supply is limited by production constraints at first. The sales targets for Model 3 are well beyond anything Tesla has attempted before. Tesla's goal is to change the world. You're going to have to create a lot of demand to do that, so why not start early?
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No matter how simple it seems to put together an update weekly, it isn't. Coming up with topics when you're in the middle of just slogging through things is tough. Sharing info when a market is antsy is tough. Getting engineers to spend some time talking to you about progress is tough when they're on critical path and just don't have time to deal with you and a a video camera. Then Legal needs to look at it, because this is a public company after all. Published & now there are customers not satisfied with the content because they feel there should be more ...
I'd have to vote no on an idea like this. Sure, some updates would be nice. Committing to a schedule? No. Helllll no. No no no. First time it's missed people are freaking out. (And if anyone disagrees with that statement, then you're obviously new to this forum.) Never mind that the person who handles that is on vacation or had a family emergency. 'Cause c'mon, how hard could it be to throw some fresh meat at this cage of lions every couple of weeks?
The idea is nice. The unintended consequences just too much.
I understand your concerns about this type of communications.
You are known as someone whom we can count on to give sage advice and have been in a management position within a manufacturing company before.....So, how would you address the legitimate concerns of Dave T vis-à-vis TM communications and missing self imposed deadlines?
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
I think the car will do that on it's own, building on the demand already created for it by the S and X. Currently there are over 100K Tesla vehicles on the road, for each one of those, how many people do you think already want a Model 3? 10, 100, 1000? Whatever number you choose it will increase further once the car actually exists.
Sudre
Active Member
I am (so far) bringing three people with me on March 31 to reserve at the store. Every time I mention it to someone else I know who is interested in a new car I get another person who's coming with me. These are regular GM, Toyota, Nissan type car buyers (not BMW, Lexus). They DO NOT understand this whole wait for a product thing. They are used to (big car maker) doing years of research secretly behind close doors then popping out and going "Here's our NEW CAR!". In short one friend has already said, "So I put down 1K and 18 months later I get my car?". My brain goes back over Model X. What do I say to him.... "well honestly I think it will be more like 2018 before any serious amounts of cars come off the line."
Alright Julian I respect your thoughts too but be honest. What happens if Model 3 goes off like Model X? I know what 2 of the 3 on my list would do. Get their deposit back and buy a GM car and never mention Tesla again. I think DaveT is making good points bringing this up because I am pretty confident some Tesla employee is reading this. Lets get this hashed out and off everyone's chest and make sure is doesn't continue to happen.
The entire lack of competition thing goes up in smoke with Model 3. Two out of the three friends of mine love the idea of an electric car but the Model 3 is going to be competing with the ICE they could have bought not another electric car. And when I say could have bought I mean right now. So they are going to be putting off buying a car for 2 years. It better be on time if not early. When they go to the GM dealer lot the door seals all fit just fine today. They won't be purchasing another new car for around 10 more years.
Has Tesla learned from the past. Well.... they revealed a Model X that was not fully fleshed out and it took a lot longer to get to production. They annoyed some strong followers in the process. Now if they had learned from that things would be different for Model 3 right... sure. hmm. What is Tesla doing? They are unveiling a Model 3 that is not fully fleshed out. Well that sounds like the same potential as the Model X scenario to me. I can understand DaveT's concerns.
On the other subject of this thread, communication. If the people I know are any representation of the typical Model 3 buyer then not counting the Tesla loyal there is a potential for a 2/3s loss of new customer base early on if things are handled poorly in the PR department. Lets look at how the PR department is going. Call your local Tesla store and ask them how they plan on handling appointments on March 31. I know my store hasn't even thought about it yet. I already have 4 including myself. I will stop drumming up potential buyers at this point. I can probably come up with 10 total but if I do that and the other Tesla enthusiast in my area do that there will be way more than the store can handle for that day. Time to slow down. Did Elon think this thru? This could be a PR nightmare. One viral post on Facebook and stores are packed with long lines. I now think this is Tesla's way of letting the 'loyal' get their reservation in first at the stores.
Alright Julian I respect your thoughts too but be honest. What happens if Model 3 goes off like Model X? I know what 2 of the 3 on my list would do. Get their deposit back and buy a GM car and never mention Tesla again. I think DaveT is making good points bringing this up because I am pretty confident some Tesla employee is reading this. Lets get this hashed out and off everyone's chest and make sure is doesn't continue to happen.
The entire lack of competition thing goes up in smoke with Model 3. Two out of the three friends of mine love the idea of an electric car but the Model 3 is going to be competing with the ICE they could have bought not another electric car. And when I say could have bought I mean right now. So they are going to be putting off buying a car for 2 years. It better be on time if not early. When they go to the GM dealer lot the door seals all fit just fine today. They won't be purchasing another new car for around 10 more years.
Has Tesla learned from the past. Well.... they revealed a Model X that was not fully fleshed out and it took a lot longer to get to production. They annoyed some strong followers in the process. Now if they had learned from that things would be different for Model 3 right... sure. hmm. What is Tesla doing? They are unveiling a Model 3 that is not fully fleshed out. Well that sounds like the same potential as the Model X scenario to me. I can understand DaveT's concerns.
On the other subject of this thread, communication. If the people I know are any representation of the typical Model 3 buyer then not counting the Tesla loyal there is a potential for a 2/3s loss of new customer base early on if things are handled poorly in the PR department. Lets look at how the PR department is going. Call your local Tesla store and ask them how they plan on handling appointments on March 31. I know my store hasn't even thought about it yet. I already have 4 including myself. I will stop drumming up potential buyers at this point. I can probably come up with 10 total but if I do that and the other Tesla enthusiast in my area do that there will be way more than the store can handle for that day. Time to slow down. Did Elon think this thru? This could be a PR nightmare. One viral post on Facebook and stores are packed with long lines. I now think this is Tesla's way of letting the 'loyal' get their reservation in first at the stores.
bonnie
I play a nice person on twitter.
Very tough question, Al. I've worked for both public and non-public companies and I bet you can guess which one is easier from a communication standpoint. For all of us who say 'well I run a business and ...', you've never had to deal with SEC filings and all the other fun stuff that goes along with being publicly held.
This is why their folks aren't allowed to talk to the media - like companies I've worked for, only media-trained/company-approved spokespeople are allowed to speak on the company's behalf. (And if anyone is ever interested in what that kind of training is like, just think 'it's brutal and park your ego at the door because the way you lift your eyebrow will be scrutinized and criticized and that's just the beginning of the fun'.)
So when you have a young company that has grown very fast, the natural tendency is going to be to clamp down on communication that isn't through the very few official channels - and when those at the top are fighting dragons like GM and the Koch frat boys, it's maybe easy to see how this slid down on the consciousness of 'that which must be taken care of'.
You know I'm reticent to take shots publicly. I have no problem taking shots privately, however, and have done so via email. Without going into particulars, I am encouraged over reactions to one email in particular that seems to have made the rounds at Tesla, right to the top, with several detours into different groups.
It doesn't matter what the topic of the email was. What matters is that customer feedback is heard internally at Tesla. I know so because I heard from people at different levels. And not because of connections there, but because of a true concern for a customer who was expressing her opinion quite clearly (hey, this isn't the only place I can be blunt!
)I guess what I'm saying is that Tesla is listening and is finding their way. Management there is dealing with an overly optimistic CEO who sees a demo and thinks it will be ready tomorrow. They're learning to make the caveats a little more clear when showing off a new feature so there is no misstatement the next day on twitter. There is a lot going on that just isn't seen publicly.
As to specifically how I would address ... funny enough, I came across a pro and con list I made up a while back regarding the X. I was completely frustrated with a number of things. I had probably 8 reasons not to go forward with the purchase. And in the other column I had one. "But I want it."
Guess which side of the list won
. Sometimes you just have to recognize when you don't have control over a situation and either get out of the situation or decide to be at peace with it. If you stay in it, complaining about it isn't going to resolve it nor is it going to make you feel better, other than the temporary cathartic effect of typing it out. I chose to stay in it and chose to not care. My X would get here when it got here. I'd say right now to let your DS know your reasonable communication expectations, while at the same time letting your DS know that 1) you know they can only tell you what they are authorized to share, and 2) you would like them to pass your request up the food chain so it's heard. Tesla IS listening. They're the teenager with feet slightly too large for their body right now and they trip. But they'll get it right.
And only you can decide if you're in or not. We don't get to decide how they communicate, we can only let them know what we'd reasonably like. (I don't think asking for frequent updates from ANY manufacturer is reasonable, btw.)
The thing is, there's not going to be electric vehicle competition that is going to have better communication and transparency than Tesla. Not for the next few years at an absolute minimum.
Try buying an electric vehicle from a dealer now. Unless you're lucky enough to live near one of the small handful of California or Atlanta dealers that move gobs of EVs, you're going to run into an absolutely horrible customer experience.
I tried to buy a non-Tesla EV. After a nine month delay and a BBB complaint, I finally got the reason for the delay of my car (which had been released in the US three years before I ordered mine). My electric car was delayed for emissions testing.
This is Mercedes, a premium carmaker. This is your competition in the EV world, thanks to anti-EV dealers. Anyone who thinks that Tesla has poor communication in the EV business, really, really, really needs to try buying an EV outside of a CARB state or outside of a major city.
Your friends may not pre-order a Model 3 and wait for 18 months, but plenty of people will. Once your friends experience the Model 3, they're going to want one. When they want one, they'll order a car and wait three months (not too different than ordering a custom car from a mainstream automaker). Or they will try to go to competition, and they will run into situations exactly like mine, all thanks to anti-EV dealers. If your friends are unfortunate enough to buy a mainstream EV, they will wonder why you can schedule service appointments anytime, while they can only schedule them on the single day the one EV tech is in. They'll wonder why their dealer techs can't figure out how to fix issues in a timely manner. They'll wonder why you can take nationwide roadtrips, and they can't.
I'm willing to bet your friends are smarter than that.
Tesla will not even come close to failing if they keep up poor communication.
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
And I can't imagine any other way for Tesla to proceed with a vehicle that is not going to be for sale until well over a year from now, one which will be heavily influenced by quickly changing technology. It would be a disaster if they locked in a design and said "Here is the exact car you'll get in 2 years". Tesla is constantly innovating, and I think that's what most of us continue to expect from them.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
I understand you had a poor experience buying an EV from another dealer, but there are other cases. For example, BMW did a fairly good job with updating and keeping i3 reservation holders in the loop. They had a good website, forum, and regular email newsletters. Basic point, the kept people up to date and in the loop, and people were appreciative of it.
Actually, I don't buy the argument that 20k reservation holders are just dying to jump a spot in the queue. I've talked to a lot of Model X reservation holders and most of them are quite lukewarm on the Model X because of Tesla's lack of communication and the fact that most haven't even got a chance to test drive it. In fact, 1/3 to 1/2 of the reservation holders I've spoken to are considering cancelling their reservation.
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