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How to manually tell battery to preheat

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Had you read the all the posts you would be aware that OP is outside in a cold climate where a charger is not accessible. You would also be aware that the kerosene heater and tent were offered as potential solutions were he unable to reach a hefty enough outlet with extension cords. And you might even have picked up the notion that Quebecois (and I'll bet people in other provinces too) use these structures with kerosene and propane heaters to effect.

The answer to the question is that it would, were a stiff source of 240 available, avail one nothing. But then it wasn't suggested when a stiff source of 240 is available.
 
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Heating a vehicle from the outside-in doesn't seem particularly efficient. What would this accomplish that preheating and charging wouldn't accomplish with less energy?
You should really read up on the physics of heat pumps and what the coefficient of performance is and why that makes them so amazingly efficient.
Coefficient of performance - Wikipedia

Here's the quick summary: A resistive heater can't get any higher than 100% efficient, because it is just an energy conversion from electrical energy to heat energy. You can only convert what you've got. But this heating "from the outside-in" can give effective efficiencies of greater than 100%, because they aren't just converting energy. Don't roll your eyes and stop reading because of the over 100% efficient idea. Here's what's happening: the device is collecting heat energy from a source and moving it to a destination. This mechanical work is more efficient than just straight energy conversion, so for example, you can use 1kWh of electricity from the battery to collect heat from the outside air and end up moving 3kWh of heat energy into the car's cabin. That would be called a coefficient of performance of 3.0, which represents effectively 300% efficiency, where you're getting 3 times the heat energy output versus the electrical energy you're using to run it.

If your skepticism is thinking that this can't be real, because it's too good to be true, well, it has obvious downsides, where it isn't effective in all kinds of conditions. So let's say it's 50 degrees outside, and you're trying to make it 72 degrees in your car. That's a small temperature difference, and there is generally a good bit of heat accessible in 50 degree air, so a heat pump will do great. But if it's 20 degrees outside, it's not easy to collect heat from that to fight such a large temperature differential, so a heat pump may run and run a lot and not do very much and have terrible efficiency and give lukewarm air. Resistive heat is simple and always works, no matter how cold it is outside. My house has a heat pump / air conditioner unit for most of the minor heating, but has a gas furnace backup for when outside gets below about mid 30's.

Also, they are kind of slow to heat things up. Like when your car is really cold, how do you heat it up to 72? Well, it would be great to blow 100 degree air from the vents to heat it up quickly. A heat pump can't really make 100 degree air, while a resistive heater can. The heat pump is more like blowing 74 degree air, and you have to blow a lot of that air for quite a while to get it up to 72. That's why they work better for buildings, where it's for maintaining moderate temperatures all the time instead of trying to heat up quickly.
 
I'm confused. We were talking about a kerosene heater in a tent being a viable method of providing better range in a cold-soaked EV, not heat pumps.

While I appreciate your recommendation that I study up on COP, I'd be more than happy to talk to you about HVAC theory and principles of operation at length in a more appropriate thread.

By the way - heat pump with gas backup is the way to go. Thumbs up for that.
 
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I'm confused. We were talking about a kerosene heater in a tent being a viable method of providing better range in a cold-soaked EV, not heat pumps.
Oh, right--sorry. I forgot this was still about the tent thing. These discussions usually go toward recommendations that Tesla should use a heat pump in the car like other electric cars, and thought this thread had already gone there too.
 
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These cords have No. 6 wire in them and that, with the lowest grade of insulation (60 °) is rated for 55 amps. With the Gen II mobile charger plugged in the vehicle will draw 32 Amps. No. 6 has resistance of 0.49 Ω/kft and a 50' cord has 100' of wire in it (out and return) for a total of 0.049 Ω. At 32 A voltage drop, for the single extension cord will be 1.568 V and power dissipation 50 W. Note that the cord is intended to be used in a 50 Amp circuit in which case dissipation would be more than twice this at 122 Watts. Plug two end to end and the voltage drop doubles to 3.136 V as does the power dissipation but note that the total power dissipation is less than half what the cord is designed to withstand and that the dissipation is now spread out over twice the length. Consider also that the 55 Amp rating for this wire is at 60 °C and OP is presumably at less than 0 °C. Thus there is clearly no risk to daisy chaining two, three or even four of these except perhaps to your wallet and back. They contain three pieces of #6 and presumably 1 of #8 and are, therefore, both expensive and heavy. You would, with 4 in series, lose 6.27 volts and thus, at 32 amp draw, obtain only 7479 Watts compared to 7630 with 1 (assuming 240 V at the outlet in both cases). There is certainly no need to reduce the charging current.

The NEC does require going to larger gauge if the run exceeds a certain length. That is done to insure that the voltage at receptacles is not degraded. But we are not wiring a building here. The code does not apply here, the car can clearly deal with the reduced voltage (down to 110) and we are not running in conduit, behind walls etc.
In the given scenario, I'm sure you are correct. I also find it ridiculous that to-go coffee cups need to have warnings about temperature/scalding all over them. However, while everyone should know that coffee could burn them before they can read those warnings, not everyone has similar knowledge about things which typically require professional education. As such, code has nothing to do with my advice. Your suggestion that charging current doesn't need turned down relies on several assumptions that aren't guaranteed to apply to each and every person who comes across said suggestion. To wit, my comment regarding the potential need to reduce the charging current was made because anyone taking that advice could plausibly vary from these assumptions in any of the following ways (and probably more):
  • Connect to commercial power where starting voltage is lower ("210" vs "220" [AKA 220 vs 240])
  • Purchase a cheaper extension cable (potentially rated for 40A or lower)
  • Have a gen 1 mobile charger (capable of drawing 40A continuous)
  • Decide that since they've bought the two cables, they're going to use them year-round (suddenly it's not near as cold as you've presumed)
 
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The car will draw a max current regardless and the onboard electronics is designed to handle that. In fact, I've read that the onboard electronics will sense a power droop and respond by drawing somewhat less current since it thinks this droop is in the wiring in the house and something may be getting overloaded.
In fact, it does. Mine has a gen 1 charger and has automatically dropped the current from 40A at two locations. In one location, the 50A outlet isn't especially snug. In the other location, there was a 100' 50A extension cord. When the Tesla does this instead of melting things, all is well, but this doesn't make it any less advisable to turn it down ahead of time and nullify the risk of something being melted to begin with.
 
Keep in mind that the car has the ability to measure the impedance of the connection. It commands 0 current draw to get the open circuit voltage (I should say it could do all these things but I don't really know whether it actually does them or not) and then pull 10 amps and measure the voltage again. If it goes down a volt under 10 A load then the hose impedance is 0.1 Ω. It can, based on this determination, decide to limit current consumption based on whatever criteria the engineers thought suitable.

I'm not surprised that it limited on the "loose" plug but am a bit surprised that it would on the 100' extension cord given that the drop should be only a couple of volts and the total power dissipation 100 W. Of course 100 W concentrated at a loose connector cable termination could cause a problem.
 
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Have you checked yours? If you find it, please let us know what the part number is so that Tesla can add it to the parts catalog.
Assuming the patent were implemented I wouldn't find it (assuming "it" refers to a glycol heat exchanger for transferring waste heat to the cabin). The patent uses the existing heat exchanger for that purpose. Valves are used to shunt glycol from the motor/inverter loop to battery cooling/compressor loop.
 
Sigh. OK, I was overgeneralizing. Yes, a heat pump can be designed that can do such a thing in some conditions. I was referring to normal residential HVAC heat pump units for houses. They generally aren't made to do that.

Mine feels warm when the air blows from the register. I assume that means it is warmer than body temperature, 98.6 or thereabouts. I know skin temp is lower than core temp which is what 98.6 is. I'll have to measure the heat when it comes back on at 8. I'm on ToU so I kill the heat between 5 and 8.
 
Sigh. OK, I was overgeneralizing. Yes, a heat pump can be designed that can do such a thing in some conditions. I was referring to normal residential HVAC heat pumps. They generally aren't made to do that.
I was describing normal, residential heat pumps. With R410A Copeland suggests keeping load side temperatures below about 112 °F for their scroll compressors. Naturally, you want to keep it below that if you can because Second Law says the lower you can keep it the better the COP. Modern systems modulate based on this. Of course as source temp. goes down COP approaches 1. In transferring heat from the inverter/motors to the cabin source would be close enough to load that Second Law would smile upon us except perhaps initially (and, of course, when the car hasn't been driven off yet) and that is what the ceramic heater is for.

Please do not interpret these remarks as an assertion on my part that the patent has been implemented in Tesla cars. I have no more idea as to whether that is the case or not than the authors of the article or anyone here.
 
I want to start a trip on a cold morning. Car parked outside with no charger nearby. How do I preheat battery for 30min to get better range? I do NOT want to preheat cabin, just battery. Is there a way in app or car display to preheat the battery? I am on v9 software if that helps.

Your wish has been granted... see this thread for a great iOS app, no affiliation. :cool:
Awesome iOS App called Stats

Here is a sneak peak at an upcoming new feature to automatically warm-up the battery a few minutes before you expect to use the car (see the attached screenshot)
  • The car charges overnight to a lower charge limit that you specify (e.g., 85%).
  • At the time that you configured, the charge limit is increased (to a level that you configured -- e.g., 90%) and car starts charging so that the battery is warmed up by the time you get in the car.
  • After one hour, the app sets the charge limit back to the lower limit (that the user has configured) to prepare it for the next cycle.
I'm planning to offer this battery conditioning feature as an optional in-app-purchase (one-time purchase and not a subscription).​

https://www.maadotaa.com/batterycond

simulator-screen-shot-iphone-xs-max-2019-02-13-at-17-39-07-png.377112


 
Mine feels warm when the air blows from the register. I assume that means it is warmer than body temperature, 98.6 or thereabouts. I know skin temp is lower than core temp which is what 98.6 is. I'll have to measure the heat when it comes back on at 8. I'm on ToU so I kill the heat between 5 and 8.

I took some measurements and it seems my house heat pump puts out air at about 88°F. My fingers are at about 75°F so the air feels warm. The palm of my hand is closer to 80°F and my arms and body are around 90°F.

I've used the phone app to measure the cabin temperature and often, no matter what I set the thermostat to the car temperature is around 68°F. I've had it as high as 76°F and the app reports 69°F. Once I stop to charge the inside temp will rise to something more reasonable. But clearly the cabin heater is not using 6 kW if it can't even maintain the cabin at 70°F when the outside temp is around 40°F.

Do you think I should roll the windows back up?
 
I can't figure out where the temperature sensor that reports to the phone app is but it isn't in the cabin (must be in a duct) or at least it does not compare at all closely with a thermocouple placed in the cabin. As I recall from some of the first experiments I did with the car turning the heat on (thermostat at 71 °F in a cabin in the high 50's) resulted in a jump in current draw to about 4.5 - 5 kW. Within a few minutes the cabin was reading near 70 on the Fluke but the app was showing 76. Current draw immediately began to taper and you could see the current go up and down as the controller tried to stabilize. But the app continued to report 76 for a long time. Current draw gradually declined to about 1.6 kW and stabilized there. All this was while parked in an unheated garage in the mid 50's.

So if you want to know what the cabin temperature is actually doing I think you will have to place a thermometer in the cabin. The thing about the heater that impresses me is that it really gets the cabin comfortable fast. But then 4 kW is almost a ton of heating and that cabin is pretty small. For comparison heating my house usually takes 4 tons (unless it gets really cold). I had to use the Lexus the other day when it was quite cold out. What a difference. I'm completely spoiled in less than 2 months.
 
I took some measurements and it seems my house heat pump puts out air at about 88°F.
That's about normal at the register for an A/A. You aren't going to like what you see but go drill a small hole in the plenum above the heat exchanger and put a probe in there. You may well find that the air is about 10 ° warmer there with the implication that you are loosing 10*1.03*cfm BTUh to the duct. As noted YMMV depending on system as some will modulate load temperature with OAT in order to keep you comfortable at maximum COP. And the drop is larger at the end of a long duct run than close to the air handler.
 
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I can't figure out where the temperature sensor that reports to the phone app is but it isn't in the cabin (must be in a duct) or at least it does not compare at all closely with a thermocouple placed in the cabin. As I recall from some of the first experiments I did with the car turning the heat on (thermostat at 71 °F in a cabin in the high 50's) resulted in a jump in current draw to about 4.5 - 5 kW. Within a few minutes the cabin was reading near 70 on the Fluke but the app was showing 76. Current draw immediately began to taper and you could see the current go up and down as the controller tried to stabilize. But the app continued to report 76 for a long time. Current draw gradually declined to about 1.6 kW and stabilized there. All this was while parked in an unheated garage in the mid 50's.

So if you want to know what the cabin temperature is actually doing I think you will have to place a thermometer in the cabin. The thing about the heater that impresses me is that it really gets the cabin comfortable fast. But then 4 kW is almost a ton of heating and that cabin is pretty small. For comparison heating my house usually takes 4 tons (unless it gets really cold). I had to use the Lexus the other day when it was quite cold out. What a difference. I'm completely spoiled in less than 2 months.
Perhaps this post would be helpful in determining? Perhaps not, though, unless there are three different temperature sensors or the support person really missed the mark. Have you ever looked at the IC when plugged in with pre-conditioning actively heating? IIRC, mine showed something like 23 amps while the battery was already done charging and the garage was close to freezing.