How to sue Tesla over historical claims

[seenhear]

So it sounds like several more people beyond the OP, have taken the small claims route. Wondering if you did this, would you please share the story of what you claimed and why/how, etc?
What was "wrong"? What model/year car? How far into / out of warranty were you when you claimed? What's the status of your claim?

 

[gearchruncher]

You have enough of a nightmare with a Tesla to invoke the lemon law, enough of a problem with hardware upgrades to take them to court, and you still bought more Teslas. You must really like the brand.

My lemon law was in 2017 on a Model X. The cars I bought after were a Model 3 RWD, then I sold that for a profit and bought a M3P. I was an early adopter of both the X and 3 platform. My lemon law experience didn't turn me off to the cars, it was just a bad one off car.

All this HW upgrade stuff came long after all of that. But they're good cars as long as you buy what they deliver on the day you pick up the car. The only problem they have is making future promises that they don't keep up, and I have no issue holding them to that.

 

[Frank Langella]

On the day I picked up the car if someone had told me TACC would be unusable on the highway 50%+ of the time I probably wouldn't have bought the car. Wonder if I can get it lemon law'd for that.

 

[Dewg]

On the day I picked up the car if someone had told me TACC would be unusable on the highway 50%+ of the time I probably wouldn't have bought the car. Wonder if I can get it lemon law'd for that.

Take it to a service center and document the issue and resolution from service. Do that several times until you reach your state's lemon law threshold and then file a claim to have the car bought back.

 

[BigDaddyKevin]

Tesla is rigorously fighting against me in small claims. They will be applying the FSD Beta excuse and MCU1 is compatible to FSD and not BETA.
I have upgraded to MCU2 and trying to recoup thru small claims using All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware | Tesla
I feel like David right now against Goliath Tesla
Any help will be great.
Thank you.

 

[Dewg]

Tesla is rigorously fighting against me in small claims. They will be applying the FSD Beta excuse and MCU1 is compatible to FSD and not BETA.
I have upgraded to MCU2 and trying to recoup thru small claims using All Tesla Cars Being Produced Now Have Full Self-Driving Hardware | Tesla
I feel like David right now against Goliath Tesla
Any help will be great.
Thank you.

I think you are using the wrong approach in court. I think you will ultimately lose the case basing it on your argument. @gearchruncher was successful using a warranty approach. MCU1 was limited on functionality, which caused some basic performance issues, including safety issues. Tesla only resolved those warranty/safety issues by having them purchase an upgrade, which was the basis of their case. The court agreed with them that warranty features / safety features should be covered and ordered Tesla to refund the costs.

You can read their story in this thread and perhaps modify/redo your court case.

 

[gearchruncher]

It will be interesting if Tesla actually shows up in small claims court. That may be a first, but you may have the downside of being local to Tesla in NorCal and they can just send someone that is local and well informed.

Like @Dewg says, your case is a bit different. I don't think it's a lost cause though, but this matters on the facts.

If Tesla is telling you that you would *eventually* get FSD on MCU1, but not the Beta, then I think you have a reasonable case. I see two facts:

1) You were advertised a car that has "all HW needed for FSD." You've been waiting years for FSD. Now you are being told that while others can get FSD, you cannot because your hardware is not compatible "yet." Well, clearly you have different HW, and where has Tesla made a specific statement that they guarantee that MCU1 will support FSD? Tesla is also famous for keeping software in beta for literally a decade. AP on AP1 cars is still beta after 9 years. Auto wipers are beta since 2017. You have zero faith that Tesla will exit beta in the reasonable lifetime of this car, absent a statement from them that they promise it will exist by a specific date. (Side note, if you can get Tesla to say, in court, on the record, that FSD NON-BETA will exist on MCU1 within a specific timeframe, you may have just bankrupted Tesla)

2) Elon specifically said that FSD beta is available to anyone in North America, a full 7 months ago. He did not caveat this with "if you have MCU2." So again, false advertising.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1595682322707267584

I think in a lot of ways this comes down to what you asked Tesla BEFORE you bought MCU2. Did you ask them when FSD beta would be available for your car? Did you go to subscribe and see a message that said "your hardware is not compatible"? Do you have documentation of this? Do you actually have FSD on your car now that you have MCU2 and you didn't when you had MCU1?

To note, while my MCU2 claim was a warranty one, my HW3 claim was not and is similar. I couldn't subscribe without a HW upgrade, and that upgrade was not free. I covered this in my original post, that if I did not have the warranty claim on MCU2, I would have gone with the "not FSD compatible" route like you are.

When you go to court, you need all of this to be clean and clear. Pretend I'm the judge. Remember that I know NOTHING about Teslas. What information are you going to present that is clear, concise, and shows damages that you believe Tesla is responsible for? Do not get into the weeds, do not complain about Elon, do not discuss how you thought your car would take your cat to the vet by itself by now. What was in writing when you bought the car that you believe Tesla is not upholding. Go....

 

[BigDaddyKevin]

It will be interesting if Tesla actually shows up in small claims court. That may be a first, but you may have the downside of being local to Tesla in NorCal and they can just send someone that is local and well informed.

Like @Dewg says, your case is a bit different. I don't think it's a lost cause though, but this matters on the facts.

If Tesla is telling you that you would *eventually* get FSD on MCU1, but not the Beta, then I think you have a reasonable case. I see two facts:

1) You were advertised a car that has "all HW needed for FSD." You've been waiting years for FSD. Now you are being told that while others can get FSD, you cannot because your hardware is not compatible "yet." Well, clearly you have different HW, and where has Tesla made a specific statement that they guarantee that MCU1 will support FSD? Tesla is also famous for keeping software in beta for literally a decade. AP on AP1 cars is still beta after 9 years. Auto wipers are beta since 2017. You have zero faith that Tesla will exit beta in the reasonable lifetime of this car, absent a statement from them that they promise it will exist by a specific date. (Side note, if you can get Tesla to say, in court, on the record, that FSD NON-BETA will exist on MCU1 within a specific timeframe, you may have just bankrupted Tesla)

2) Elon specifically said that FSD beta is available to anyone in North America, a full 7 months ago. He did not caveat this with "if you have MCU2." So again, false advertising.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1595682322707267584

I think in a lot of ways this comes down to what you asked Tesla BEFORE you bought MCU2. Did you ask them when FSD beta would be available for your car? Did you go to subscribe and see a message that said "your hardware is not compatible"? Do you have documentation of this? Do you actually have FSD on your car now that you have MCU2 and you didn't when you had MCU1?

To note, while my MCU2 claim was a warranty one, my HW3 claim was not and is similar. I couldn't subscribe without a HW upgrade, and that upgrade was not free. I covered this in my original post, that if I did not have the warranty claim on MCU2, I would have gone with the "not FSD compatible" route like you are.

When you go to court, you need all of this to be clean and clear. Pretend I'm the judge. Remember that I know NOTHING about Teslas. What information are you going to present that is clear, concise, and shows damages that you believe Tesla is responsible for? Do not get into the weeds, do not complain about Elon, do not discuss how you thought your car would take your cat to the vet by itself by now. What was in writing when you bought the car that you believe Tesla is not upholding. Go....

Did you ask them when FSD beta would be available for your car?
Thru the app I did ask and they responded, MCU1 is compatible with FSD but need MCU2 in order to go FSD BETA.
Originally our Model X has HW 2.5.
When I went to get it serviced, then they told me I needed MCU2 for FSD.

Tesla is arguing I didn't need to upgrade MCU2 if i wanted to subscribe to just only FSD which is why they don't want to pay out.
At this point, I am trying to gather as much information for my defense.

 

[gearchruncher]

I'll just say that your terse responses aren't going to play well in court. I personally find it useful to write out my argument to the judge so that it has clear flow, a clear argument, and clear damages. I'd suggest you do that, and then post it here so we can help more.

The only other thing I'll say is I think Tesla is trying to play fast and loose with the definition of FSD. Because of course you can buy/subscribe to FSD today, if what you want out of "FSD" is auto lane changes and summon. And then they want to call the rest of it "FSD Beta."

Don't let them win that. Read my first posts in this thread CAREFULLY, and read how people made some counter arguments and how I handled those. Particularly post #8. Tesla advertised that all cars have the HW needed for FSD CAPABILITY. Not "all cars have the HW needed for FSD non-beta." They currently sell a subscription to FSD capability, however they won't let you subscribe to FSD CAPABILITY because you don't have the hardware. Not FSD beta, which is flat out not a thing you can subscribe to. Nomenclature matters, and Tesla dug themselves a hole on this starting in 2016 and continuing to today. If it comes to it, and Tesla keeps bringing up FSD "beta," ask them how you can buy FSD beta, and point out in the app that to buy this the actual product name is "full self driving capability" and that's exactly what they advertised your car having the hardware for. Also point out that the term "FSD beta" and "full self driving capability beta" are not product descriptions anywhere on their site or sales process. Only "full self driving capability" is.

 

[BigDaddyKevin]

It will be interesting if Tesla actually shows up in small claims court. That may be a first, but you may have the downside of being local to Tesla in NorCal and they can just send someone that is local and well informed.

Like @Dewg says, your case is a bit different. I don't think it's a lost cause though, but this matters on the facts.

If Tesla is telling you that you would *eventually* get FSD on MCU1, but not the Beta, then I think you have a reasonable case. I see two facts:

1) You were advertised a car that has "all HW needed for FSD." You've been waiting years for FSD. Now you are being told that while others can get FSD, you cannot because your hardware is not compatible "yet." Well, clearly you have different HW, and where has Tesla made a specific statement that they guarantee that MCU1 will support FSD? Tesla is also famous for keeping software in beta for literally a decade. AP on AP1 cars is still beta after 9 years. Auto wipers are beta since 2017. You have zero faith that Tesla will exit beta in the reasonable lifetime of this car, absent a statement from them that they promise it will exist by a specific date. (Side note, if you can get Tesla to say, in court, on the record, that FSD NON-BETA will exist on MCU1 within a specific timeframe, you may have just bankrupted Tesla)

2) Elon specifically said that FSD beta is available to anyone in North America, a full 7 months ago. He did not caveat this with "if you have MCU2." So again, false advertising.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1595682322707267584

I think in a lot of ways this comes down to what you asked Tesla BEFORE you bought MCU2. Did you ask them when FSD beta would be available for your car? Did you go to subscribe and see a message that said "your hardware is not compatible"? Do you have documentation of this? Do you actually have FSD on your car now that you have MCU2 and you didn't when you had MCU1?

To note, while my MCU2 claim was a warranty one, my HW3 claim was not and is similar. I couldn't subscribe without a HW upgrade, and that upgrade was not free. I covered this in my original post, that if I did not have the warranty claim on MCU2, I would have gone with the "not FSD compatible" route like you are.

When you go to court, you need all of this to be clean and clear. Pretend I'm the judge. Remember that I know NOTHING about Teslas. What information are you going to present that is clear, concise, and shows damages that you believe Tesla is responsible for? Do not get into the weeds, do not complain about Elon, do not discuss how you thought your car would take your cat to the vet by itself by now. What was in writing when you bought the car that you believe Tesla is not upholding. Go....

see attached

 

[2020]

This post has given me courage to sue Tesla for false advertising. I paid in full for FSD for my MY back in late 2020 or early 2021. For over a year it was not available. When the Beta version came out I was not qualified because of my safety score arbitrarily set up by Tesla. Mind you I have not been involved in an accident for the past 30 yrs. Lately this system is so bad that you basically have to drive the car for it to work. If you look away for 2 seconds it will warn you or disengage. I recently got a warning that if my system disengages 3 more times they will permanently cancel my FSD (wtf). I should get a refund for this. What do you guys think?

 

[EVNow]

This post has given me courage to sue Tesla for false advertising. I paid in full for FSD for my MY back in late 2020 or early 2021. For over a year it was not available. When the Beta version came out I was not qualified because of my safety score arbitrarily set up by Tesla. Mind you I have not been involved in an accident for the past 30 yrs. Lately this system is so bad that you basically have to drive the car for it to work. If you look away for 2 seconds it will warn you or disengage. I recently got a warning that if my system disengages 3 more times they will permanently cancel my FSD (wtf). I should get a refund for this. What do you guys think?

I'll be watching what happens to your case closely. The website didn't promise actual hands free driving after March-'19 so it will be interesting see what the court says (though in your case its small claims court).

 

[gearchruncher]

I think someone bringing a fundamental "Failure to deliver" case to small claims would be fascinating.
For FSD bought in 2020/2021, the website and order process DID say "coming this year" for "city streets autosteer." It had a date.
Today, the site just says "coming soon."
So even Tesla acknowledges that they have not shipped CSA. Everything up to this point is some sort of beta.

So if I went this route, I'd avoid all the details about FSD and beta and such:

"I paid $6,000 for a feature described as coming in 2021. It is now 2023, and Tesla's own product description now refers to this as "coming soon." All I have been delivered is a beta of the feature, which requires monitoring never described in the initial description, and which the company is now threatening to remove from the vehicle with no compensation. I request a full refund of the purchase price of this feature as Tesla has not met the terms of their original sale, and Tesla has no date when they will be able to deliver."

 

[importon]

Looks like they're setting up to do this to millions of users again with hardware 4. Someone needs to press elon on making FSD licenses transferable at least. So we can upgrade our whole vehicle.

 

[gearchruncher]

Someone needs to press elon on making FSD licenses transferable at least. So we can upgrade our whole vehicle.

I always kind of wince when people suggest that somehow allowing a transfer of the license would solve all of this.

Why would I want my only resolution to paying thousands or tens of thousands of dollars for something that has not been delivered to be that I can transfer that same worthless purchase to another car from the same company?

...And then wait forever with that car too.

The hilarity of the whole license transfer thing is that it acknowledges one basic fact: A used car with FSD isn't worth much more than one without. If FSD was worth what they charged, then a used Tesla with FSD would be worth $10K more than one without, and you wouldn't need to transfer. But it's worth about $1K more, so people are trying to justify hanging onto that "purchase."

So the only reason people want to transfer the license is a hope that somehow, some day, this thing they bought will be worth something. It's the same as holding onto a stock that is way down instead of selling and cutting your losses. It's pure gambling, and it shows that right now FSD is not a product, it's an "investment" albeit one sold as a product and not under the scrutiny that a real investment would require.

Tesla will learn zero lessons about pre-selling vaporware if the only negative they encounter is that they have to let some people transfer the license if that person decides to buy another brand new Tesla. Having to give refunds is what would actually impact their financials and make them reconsider. Not selling another car.

And in the end, if you're really considering another Tesla after you have been through the FSD debacle, then you're not really someone that considers themselves to have real damages here. You're not actually that annoyed at Tesla business practices. You probably believe Tesla will hit L4 autonomy in the next few years. You're still in that phase where you believe, and you're rich enough to spend tens of thousands upgrading a car because it has a few new features, and the reality is you just want a bit of a discount to make you feel like it wasn't a completely insane decision. And you probably also know in your heart that HW3 will never work, but that Tesla will also not upgrade cars to HW4, but somehow you're OK with paying for hardware upgrades despite being told you had all HW needed, but that SW should really just be free.

Not because you fundamentally think Tesla purposefully misleads customers and moving that license somehow resolves that.

 

[DasBoot]

I think someone bringing a fundamental "Failure to deliver" case to small claims would be fascinating.
For FSD bought in 2020/2021, the website and order process DID say "coming this year" for "city streets autosteer."

An Australian bringing this case would have an even stronger case given there hasn't ever been access to the FSD beta in RHD markets. Australian Consumer Law wouldn't hurt either.

 

[EVNow]

So the only reason people want to transfer the license is a hope that somehow, some day, this thing they bought will be worth something.

Not really. I would have upgraded if my FSD transferred. But now I've to either subscribe or pay $15k for it.

Yes, I really like FSDb and use it 95% of the time.

 

[gearchruncher]

Not really. I would have upgraded if my FSD transferred. But now I've to either subscribe or pay $15k for it.

If it was worth $15K, then you could sell your current car for $15K more than one without FSD and buy a new one with FSD for no real loss.
The problem is that the used market clearly doesn't value FSD much, so it's depreciated wildly.

But this is just the norm for cars. It's weird that people don't think FSD should depreciate like everything else they are used to, although I guess Elon told us it was an appreciating asset and that's just another crazy thing he said that we want to hold him to.

If you think FSD transfer is a good way for Tesla to increase sales amongst their rich early adopters, that's one thing. But treating it as if it's a solution to their wildly optimistic timeframes and functionality descriptions is independent, and in my opinion not a solution at all for those owners that do not find their "purchases" to have delivered the value they were promisted.

 

[EVNow]

If it was worth $15K, then you could sell your current car for $15K more than one without FSD and buy a new one with FSD for no real loss.
The problem is that the used market clearly doesn't value FSD much, so it's depreciated wildly.

Thats right - but then I only paid 5k (EAP + FSD). But now the prices have shot up and will have to pay $15k for the same feature.

Personally I'd not pay $15k for the FSD - I'd subscribe. So, its not surprising on a used car with limited lifetime people don't want to pay $15k for FSD. Moreover - people who can afford to pay $15k for an automation feature will probably not buy used.

None of this has anything to do with FSD transfer. If Tesla transferred FSD a lot of us would upgrade and they wouldn't have needed to slash prices so much. But thats an entirely different topic.

 

[Yelobird]

If Tesla transferred FSD a lot of us would upgrade and they wouldn't have needed to slash prices so much. But thats an entirely different topic.

Agreed, I would not own a Tesla technology vehicle if I didn’t have the FSD. IF they transferred or provided a reasonable allowance I would have a Model S Plaid tomorrow without hesitation.