Possibly the most important point so far. I still have my CHAdeMO adapter but I have not used it since superchargers opened near my most frequent locations. I'll be happy when I no longer even carry it.
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I'm going to guess that like Ford, Chevy will require dealers who want to sell Bolts have to install public facing chargers. Ford requires 2 (one in service, one with public access). IF they get the dealers to play ball. They can get a dealers to buy $1000+ tools to work on something a few times that for a charger should be doable as a customer amenity? I've never been turned down for a charge at any Ford and have even stopped at a few Nissans. Everyone's been nice, but I have seen stories of people getting turned away if they didn't buy it there.
Really the only network they have to build is the hardest part of between towns, then figure maintenance, etc.
Really the only network they have to build is the hardest part of between towns, then figure maintenance, etc.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Exactly, just one country. Of 5M people.
Whose government taxes gas guzzlers with extreme prejudice.
And leaves BEVs tax free. At least until the next review.
Where BEVs and PHEVs account for roughly 1/4 of new car sales whereas every populous country is under 2% and usually under 1%.
It is a long shot the German government will build a fast charge network for Germany.
Fastned in the Netherlands is building a 50 kWh network.
The Chinese government is building a very basic network of high speed chargers.
In other words if MB wants to sell as many long range BEVs as Tesla it needs a network on top of what is already planned.
Or the other way around. Charger networks will develop with more EVs on the road. 'All' carmakers are coming with Evs now. And they will share the same plug, chademo or combo, so its easier for third party companies to deliver their charging solutions for a large marked.
green1
Active Member
The economics in North America are much different, so more likley, if it were the USA it would be zero, or maybe 50 tops.
Charging networks might happen by themselves in Europe, but nobody in north america is making any form of serious effort other than Tesla (and as a Canadian I find even their effort to be pretty marginal)
I'm very doubtful that there's a profitable business in 3rd party EV charging unless the government or a consortium of automakers provided serious subsidies. Most charging is done at home, so if there's going to be widespread distribution of chargers, I don't see how they will be utilized enough to pay for their installation.
I doubt a separate company can make money any time soon by setting up its own charging network. It would be nice if national restaurant chains would start installing chargers and/or superchargers. It would bring customers into the restaurants and give drivers the power the charging stations they need. While I don't want to spend an hour at a McDonalds, they have thousands of locations. If each of them had chargers available, it would be a big step. I know that at least a couple of the McDonalds along I-70 in Colorado have 14-50 outlets that are available for customer use. It's not supercharging, but it could be enough to get you where you need to go.
I believe the Fusion Energi only has a 7.6 KWh battery and the cheapest Model S has a 70 KWh. A low power charger is OK for a small battery, but larger batteries need high current DC chargers or you're going to sit there for 12 hours or more.
Tesla is focusing on building chargers between towns. Most superchargers are easily accessible from main highways and most are placed outside of cities, California being the main exception. Somebody is going to have to build something similar for other BEVs.
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But if you look at the battery production situation, all those new BEVs are going to be low production vehicles. LG Chem and other suppliers are supplying parts for 30,000 Bolts a year. Estimates are that LG Chem might be able to stretch production to supply 52,000 Bolts a year, but that would max out their production capacity and leave no spare capacity for anyone else.
There will be more brands of BEVs on the road in a few years, but except for Tesla, not significantly more total vehicles.
CHAdeMO is the standard for Japanese EVs and I think the Koreans have adopted it too. The North American and European auto makers have agreed on CCS. However both CHAdeMO and CCS are standards for plugs and delivery protocol and have no standard delivery power. Though there are theoretical maximum power delivery levels in the spec, very few stations in the real world deliver anywhere near the maximum. They are adequate for today's small battery PHEVs and BEVs, but they will become a burden for large battery BEVs that are coming.
The mistake most car makers are making is expecting somebody else to build a high power charging network. In some cases they are asking governments to do it, but that's not going to happen in most of the US. It may happen in some European countries, but it probably won't happen in all. Most car makers are hoping some entrepreneur(s) will build a high speed charging network with their plug standard, but right now there is no money in it and there won't be money in it until there are a lot of long range BEVs on the road and people aren't going to buy long range BEVs in numbers if there charging network isn't there. Somebody has to do what Tesla did and build a high speed charging network at a loss to get things started.
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This is true now, but won't be the case as BEVs become more common. Less than 1/2 the US population has the ability to charge a car at home. Some people own homes, but have no garage and no driveway, some have old houses with wiring that is too ancient to add a charger, many people rent and few rental houses are going to have EV charging for a long time, other people live in condos or apartments. Many condos have parking garages or parking lots and most suburban apartment complexes have parking lots, but a lot of apartment dwellers have to park on the street.
At some point there is going to have to be a major effort to install chargers in residential areas where people don't have the ability to charge at home. It's going to be a major expense and part of it will have to be public money.
vitaliy
Member
Fastned will be 100kW+ by the time there is a large battery EV other than Tesla. Fastned is also looking to expand in Germany and Belgium. They are publicly traded and fully funded until 2017. If I were a BMW/GM/Audi/whatever and in 2018 I'd have a serious large capacity car round the corner I'd just buy them out and take it from there. Solves at least the situation for Western Europe.
But more importantly : what these independent charging companies show that if there is a real need, it is possible to roll out a network that's covering any given region in a fairly short time (1-2 years). It just takes money and dedication.
RobStark
Well-Known Member
Sounds like the Audi EV plan the last five years.
So Western Europe now compromises The Netherlands,Belgium and Germany?
The UK,Ireland,France,Spain,Italy,Austria,Switzerland,Spain, Portugal,Denmark,Sweden etc no longer count?
Money and dedication is all that has been required for 20 years.
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So far Tesla has been the only entity to solve the chicken and egg problem.
A significant amount of mainstream non early adopter drivers won't buy EVs without convenient charging networks even if they are available for sale from every car dealer on the planet.
And charging networks will not invest in continental wide convenient fast charging networks until there is a critical mass of EVs.
Some of those countries are either Scandinavian or Southern Europe. I believe Scandinavia will have its own independent fast charge network by then and Southern Europe is indeed counting for far less. Having a base within Germany and the Benelux allows for Fastned to technically establish their offering, organisation, backend etc. Afterwards it's money and dedication to roll out wherever possible.
Some in this thread claim that time is also required. The main point of my post was that time, by far the hardest of all three to allocate, isn't all that much a problem.
Having a few fat cat customers is nice, but 100 average income customers are more likely to spend more money in a shop or restaurant than 10 wealthy customers.
I was talking more over the course of a day. A supercharger in a somewhat remote area in the middle of Iowa or something may only see a couple of people a day. Some days it may not be used at all. However a car with millions of middle class owners would have a constant flow of people through the charger all day every day. Though they probably would need more stalls than seen at a typical SC today.
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