HPWC vs. others + questions (new S60D owner)

[JCL123]

Hello,

My S60D arrives in about a week, and I have already had my electrician install a 14-50 in the garage, ready to go. I did not get the "dual chargers" option because for now I think the single charger will be enough, and my whole house only has 100A service, so likely I could not currently do a 72A draw anyways.

(Forgive me, if some of this has already been discussed 1000x already and my forum searching has failed me, go ahead the slap me with a link...)

I am an engineer, and I love to research things, but I am in a bit of a quandary. Here are some notes about my plans/goals:

Extra cable
* I do want to have an extra charging cable, because I don't want to constantly pack/unpack the mobile one, and since that costs about as much as the HPWC, why not just get one right? It's simple and even looks nice ;-)
* This is probably my #1 issue in favor of the HPWC if I don't come up with a better idea

Faster charging
* I can see myself wanting faster charging in the future, and upgrading to the dual chargers
* Until then, I certainly won't get something that can only do 30A charging, I want at least my 48A
* My electrician did mention that 72A charging would need a 2AWG wire which will not be cheap

Electric service upgrade
* I will be upgrading my electric service to 200A anyways, because my home theater is going to need it. This will be an additional run, so in theory I could even have 300A if I wanted, or just have it replace my existing service.
* I do have solar panels, and I am considering the power wall, but that is probably a bit of a separate discussion

Sharing
* I was thinking it might be good to offer my home charger to those who might be in need (plugshare, etc), since I might need something like that myself someday. So, it makes sense to have a universal charger that can do more than just Tesla.
* I suppose I could just leave the 14-50 in addition to a HPWC, as it is likely other car types will also be able to charge from that type of plug - although I would not be able to charge my car at the same time with the current electric service.

HPWC vs. others
* So there are some fancy chargers out there like the ClipperCreek and others:
70/80A Level 2 EVSE CS-100 Hardwired | ClipperCreek
48A Level 2 EVSE HCS-60 Hardwired | ClipperCreek
* This charger above is much more expensive than the HPWC at $2200, the 48A one is more reasonable
* Here is a JuiceBox that is only slightly more expensive than the HPWC
JuiceBox Pro 75A WiFi-equipped Plug-in Electric Vehicle Charger / Charging Station with 24-foot cable and NEMA 14-50 plug
* I *do* have an offer from my electric company to get a similar charger for only $500, but only capable of 30A
* Some of these have their own internet connectivity and other fancy features. I see some have said that these may redundant with the features already in the car

Installation tax credit
* So, has anyone successfully claimed the tax credit for installing their plugs/chargers?
Tax Credit for Electric Vehicle Stations - ChargePoint
Form 8911, Alternative Fuel Vehicle Refueling Property Credit
* I am going to ask my tax pro, but it looks like you might be able to get everything except the permits covered, which would be the labor for the electrician, parts, and maybe the charger itself... up to 30% for a maximum $1,000
* If this is true, why get a more expensive charger and max out the credit?


That's all my research so far. Wondering if anyone has gotten further than this and has an even better idea.

Thanks

JCL

 

[DarkMatter]

How big of a home theater setup do you have to need an electrical service upgrade? I think you're overestimating that.

More to the point you don't need to get a second mobile connector as you really don't need to bring the one you have unless you're going on a trip. Bring the J1772 adapter in case you need to use public charging. Unless you plan to do short turnarounds (like getting home with a dead battery and then leaving in six hours for another long drive) you won't need the faster charging. The faster charging is also less efficient.

And yes, the forum has been all over this already.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Yes, you can use the tax credit. Sharing a charger on plugshare in a residential area doesn't work very well. You're never around when people want to charge, etc. Go with the HPWC if you want to upgrade your charger. Can you even upgrade your car to dual chargers anymore? You might want to confirm that you can.

 

[davewill]

The EVSE tax credit is virtually impossible to take if you're taking the federal tax credit for the car in the same tax year. It has to do with the details of calculating TMT for tax credits. Essentially, if you have enough tax liability to use all the whole $7500 car tax credit AND the EVSE tax credit, then the TMT calculation will kill the EVSE tax credit. Even if you get them into separate tax years, the EVSE tax credit is subject to AMT, so you still might not get to use it.

As far as the equipment, I would say that unless you are really serious about Plugshare and want to have a J1772 plug for other types of cars, the HPWC is a no brainer compared to the other choices for a Tesla owner.

If this were being installed at a business location, then the tax credit is easy since it can be rolled over, and I'd go with a J1772 to support the widest range of cars.

 

[JCL123]

How big of a home theater setup do you have to need an electrical service upgrade? I think you're overestimating that.

Maybe. So far I have:
13 channels x 200W = 2600 watts
4 subs x 400W = 1600 watts
Projector 300W
Total: 4,500W
There is also a bunch of smaller things. I realize the theater amps don't use anywhere near that continuously, but I am worried that if I am watching something with allot of action and low frequency while the car is charging, that I could throw the breaker. That would be annoying. Because lots of other things could be running - air conditioning, washer/dryer, other computers and televisions, dish washer, microwave. You get the idea.

I am sorry. If you have a link to one of the better threads or a sticky, that would be appreciated.

That is a good point about the mobile charger, I thought I would be carrying it with me all the time, but I could probably do as you say, since I mostly do local travel.

In what way is the fast charging less efficient? In so far as power used, charging time? Battery longevity?

Thanks for the reply

JCL

 

[JCL123]

sorry, screwed up the quoting there...

 

[JCL123]

Yes, you can use the tax credit. Sharing a charger on plugshare in a residential area doesn't work very well. You're never around when people want to charge, etc. Go with the HPWC if you want to upgrade your charger. Can you even upgrade your car to dual chargers anymore? You might want to confirm that you can.

That is good on the tax credit... and that includes the cost of the HPWC if I get one? If so, I will probably order it right away since they are back ordered.

I see your point on the plugshare, but everyone probably has the same issue unless they make the charger accessible from the outside or something. And that might have some drawbacks. I do have space for that if I wanted to.

Why would you say you can't upgrade to dual chargers? It was an option for me, did they take that away?

-JCL

 

[JCL123]

The EVSE tax credit is virtually impossible to take if you're taking the federal tax credit for the car in the same tax year. It has to do with the details of calculating TMT for tax credits. Essentially, if you have enough tax liability to use all the whole $7500 car tax credit AND the EVSE tax credit, then the TMT calculation will kill the EVSE tax credit. Even if you get them into separate tax years, the EVSE tax credit is subject to AMT, so you still might not get to use it.

As far as the equipment, I would say that unless you are really serious about Plugshare and want to have a J1772 plug for other types of cars, the HPWC is a no brainer compared to the other choices for a Tesla owner.

If this were being installed at a business location, then the tax credit is easy since it can be rolled over, and I'd go with a J1772 to support the widest range of cars.

OK, this is great advice, thank you very much. Bummer on the tax credit, but my electrician only charged me $300 total anyways. Maybe I will buy the HPWC next year so that I can take advantage of the tax credit, if it is still available.

On the sharing, just wanted to try and be a good EV citizen if I can.

-JCL

 

[Cosmacelf]

Why would you say you can't upgrade to dual chargers? It was an option for me, did they take that away?
-JCL

It is an option at time of purchase. I thought that Tesla had stopped offering an upgrade from 48A to 72A after purchase for newer cars, but I might be wrong. I just tried doing a forum search for this info and just got more confused. So ... double check that you can buy it as an upgrade later...

 

[JCL123]

It is an option at time of purchase. I thought that Tesla had stopped offering an upgrade from 48A to 72A after purchase for newer cars, but I might be wrong. I just tried doing a forum search for this info and just got more confused. So ... double check that you can buy it as an upgrade later...

Well, it's going to be a big Homer Simpson Doh! if I can't.....

 

[AndreSF]

Sharing
* I was thinking it might be good to offer my home charger to those who might be in need (plugshare, etc), since I might need something like that myself someday. So, it makes sense to have a universal charger that can do more than just Tesla.
* I suppose I could just leave the 14-50 in addition to a HPWC, as it is likely other car types will also be able to charge from that type of plug - although I would not be able to charge my car at the same time with the current electric service.

HPWC vs. others
* So there are some fancy chargers out there like the ClipperCreek and others:
70/80A Level 2 EVSE CS-100 Hardwired | ClipperCreek
48A Level 2 EVSE HCS-60 Hardwired | ClipperCreek
* This charger above is much more expensive than the HPWC at $2200, the 48A one is more reasonable
* Here is a JuiceBox that is only slightly more expensive than the HPWC
JuiceBox Pro 75A WiFi-equipped Plug-in Electric Vehicle Charger / Charging Station with 24-foot cable and NEMA 14-50 plug
* I *do* have an offer from my electric company to get a similar charger for only $500, but only capable of 30A
* Some of these have their own internet connectivity and other fancy features. I see some have said that these may redundant with the features already in the car

JCL

Congrats on your Model S!

Other cars will not be able to use NEMA 14-50, or at least I don't know of any EVs that can use that plug with the included EVSE.

I would stick with wall connector if you thinking about EVSE or just use your UMC for daily charging combined with NEMA 14-50. If you really want J1772 based EVSE, I would recommend checking out OpenEVSE kits OpenEV Store - OpenEV Store

BTW You can also get an EVSE that plugs into NEMA 14-50

 

[JCL123]

Congrats on your Model S!

Other cars will not be able to use NEMA 14-50, or at least I don't know of any EVs that can use that plug with the included EVSE.

I would stick with wall connector if you thinking about EVSE or just use your UMC for daily charging combined with NEMA 14-50. If you really want J1772 based EVSE, I would recommend checking out OpenEVSE kits OpenEV Store - OpenEV Store

BTW You can also get an EVSE that plugs into NEMA 14-50

OK, that is helpful.

And thanks for the link to the OpenEV store, I didn't know about that one.

I think I will stick with my 14-50 and the UMC for now, I feel better with that based on all the replies I have here now.

many thanks

JCL

 

[David29]

It is an option at time of purchase. I thought that Tesla had stopped offering an upgrade from 48A to 72A after purchase for newer cars, but I might be wrong. I just tried doing a forum search for this info and just got more confused. So ... double check that you can buy it as an upgrade later...

The Tesla Motors Design Studio pages (for both Model S and X) still say you can activate the 72 amp charger after delivery for $1,900. The option is not listed on the "Shop" pages, though.

 

[DarkMatter]

Maybe. So far I have:
13 channels x 200W = 2600 watts
4 subs x 400W = 1600 watts
Projector 300W
Total: 4,500W
There is also a bunch of smaller things. I realize the theater amps don't use anywhere near that continuously, but I am worried that if I am watching something with allot of action and low frequency while the car is charging, that I could throw the breaker. That would be annoying. Because lots of other things could be running - air conditioning, washer/dryer, other computers and televisions, dish washer, microwave. You get the idea.

You won't blow the breaker, I promise. Most of the time you'll be listening at a few tens of watts at the most. 4500 watts of amplification at full tilt is enough to put out actually painful levels of sound. Those wattage ratings really come in to play for a few tens of milliseconds at a time, so they are supplied by the bulk capacitance inside the equipment.

However you should do a load calculation for the rest of your house, or get an electrician to help you with it. The home theater will want a dedicated 15A or 20A circuit but won't need anything more than that. However just a dryer+Tesla is going to put you at 64 amps of the 80 available in your 100A service. Add two window A/C units (7A at 240V) and, say, an oven (20A) and you'll pop the main breaker. It won't be due to the home theater setup, but it will happen.

 

[JCL123]

You won't blow the breaker, I promise. Most of the time you'll be listening at a few tens of watts at the most. 4500 watts of amplification at full tilt is enough to put out actually painful levels of sound. Those wattage ratings really come in to play for a few tens of milliseconds at a time, so they are supplied by the bulk capacitance inside the equipment.

However you should do a load calculation for the rest of your house, or get an electrician to help you with it. The home theater will want a dedicated 15A or 20A circuit but won't need anything more than that. However just a dryer+Tesla is going to put you at 64 amps of the 80 available in your 100A service. Add two window A/C units (7A at 240V) and, say, an oven (20A) and you'll pop the main breaker. It won't be due to the home theater setup, but it will happen.

Right, I think we are on the same page. I don't think the theater+car will do it by itself, it's what the rest of the family is doing at the time.

The good news is that my dryer, oven, heating, and water heater are all natural gas. The things that are high draw in my house are the two central air conditioners (each on a 30A breaker, but I will have to check the actual draw), and possibly floor heating in the bathrooms and there is a hot tub with a pump and electric heater, but those are infrequently used.

The two 7x200 amplifiers have two 15A plugs each, because it is possible for them to momentarily draw more than 15A. The whole theater is going to be on it's own subpanel with it's own grounding and noise isolation. It will actually be interesting to see how much power an intense movie sequence actually uses.

I am thinking of getting one of those "Sense" power meters that can tell you what everything in the house is drawing, then I can get good real-world numbers.

JCL

 

[MorrisonHiker]

* So, has anyone successfully claimed the tax credit for installing their plugs/chargers?
Tax Credit for Electric Vehicle Stations - ChargePoint
Form 8911, Alternative Fuel Vehicle Refueling Property Credit
* I am going to ask my tax pro, but it looks like you might be able to get everything except the permits covered, which would be the labor for the electrician, parts, and maybe the charger itself... up to 30% for a maximum $1,000
* If this is true, why get a more expensive charger and max out the credit?

I got about $540 back on the installation of my two NEMA 14-50 outlets. It's pretty easy as all you have to do is fill out the amount you paid for the installation of the alternative fuel vehicle infrastructure. I probably only entered one more number in TurboTax to claim the tax credit.

 

[Electric Joe]

My two more cents on this...

Cent 1: One UMC is plenty. Before I got my Model S I assumed I would want to keep the UMC in the car and have a stationary EVSE mounted in my garage (or a second UMC semi-permanently installed in the garage). But now that I've been driving the car for nine months I feel very differently. I've only actually put the UMC in my car twice for long trips and didn't come close to needing to use it either time. The range of the car is really impressive, and in a real pinch I could find a charging station and use the J1772 adapter. Even in an EV-hostile state like Michigan, locating public charging is usually possible, if not convenient. And hey, you can always toss the single UMC in your car in those very rare cases where you might need it. Mine is mounted overhead in the garage but even removing it from that setup takes just a few minutes.

Cent 2: High speed charging at home isn't useful. My car is the older high-wattage charger style: dual 40-amp chargers for 80 amps max charging. I typically drive about 100 miles per day and often hit 150 miles in a day. Lately my car has been forcing my charging current draw down to 30 instead of the usual 40 amps on my UMC (not sure why -- waiting on Tesla for some assistance) so recovering that 100 miles' worth of range takes over five hours. But that has never been a problem, not even once. It's hard to imagine a scenario where 5 hours to recover 100 miles at home is a problem. It's usually nearly finished charging by the time I go to bed.

Bonus cent: DarkMatter said faster charging is less efficient, but I think that's incorrect. If you play around with Tesla's charging calculator you can see that faster charging uses less electricity and is thus more efficient. Still, it's negligible and probably not worth upgrading from 30 or 40 amps to something higher to save a percent or two in charge efficiency.

Final cent and I'll shut up: An EVSE with fancy networked features is not necessary when you're charging a Tesla. The car lets you remotely start and stop charging with the app and lets you schedule charging from inside the car. I definitely wouldn't suggest a networked EVSE for use with a Tesla.

 

[Cosmacelf]

YMMV with regards to "needing" a high power charger at home. In 3 1/2 years, there have been a handful of times where I charged during the day and was glad I had high power. Things like forgot to charge the night before, had to do a lot of driving in one day and night, etc.

 

[Rocky_H]

YMMV with regards to "needing" a high power charger at home. In 3 1/2 years, there have been a handful of times where I charged during the day and was glad I had high power. Things like forgot to charge the night before, had to do a lot of driving in one day and night, etc.

One of the other factors in evaluating that at home is what other backup plans are available? If there is a Supercharger in your city, maybe that does cover the 1 or 2 times a year that fast charge at home might have been useful.

 

[MorrisonHiker]

One of the other factors in evaluating that at home is what other backup plans are available? If there is a Supercharger in your city, maybe that does cover the 1 or 2 times a year that fast charge at home might have been useful.

Good point. The closest Supercharger for me is over 30 miles east. Normally, I would never use it. However, if there was an emergency and I needed to drive to visit family in KS or NE and I didn't have sufficient charge, I would consider stopping at the Supercharger before continuing east. For regular, planned road trips, I would just charge at home via wind power* or work via solar power.