HW2.5 capabilities

[alcibiades]

Is redundancy actually a requirement by the NHTSA guidelines? Any references?

If so, this certainly falls into a regulatory requirement. SAE Level 5 as defined does not require any redundancy at all.

So this may be a situation where despite all the people poo-pooing Tesla's caveats about regulatory requirements, it's actually something that is significant (could be a situation where Tesla gets to something that is L5, but is not legal because it lacks redundancy).

However, I would still caution against making too many assumptions. It seems everyone here is assuming all changes being made are for FSD when many of them may be unrelated.

Nags solve the redundancy problem. I don't know if that makes it L4 or not, but in either case Tesla needs to produce the software on the HW2 system to be judged. They cannot transparently try to hide their failure behind regulatory requirements.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Nags solve the redundancy problem. I don't know if that makes it L4 or not, but in either case Tesla needs to produce the software on the HW2 system to be judged. They cannot transparently try to hide their failure behind regulatory requirements.

By definition, anything with nags is neither L4 nor L5.

And mixing L4/L5 software with lower levels can be dangerous because it may give a false sense of security and greatly increase reaction times. They necessarily have to be different (for example acceptable false positive/false negative levels will be different).

 

[alcibiades]

By definition, anything with nags is neither L4 nor L5.

Thanks for the clarification. Regardless, my point stands.

 

[lunitiks]

If your point was: Show us that our existing, production HW can deliver Smart summon, Autosteer+ and some FSD-features today. Even with all the nags in the world. I agree!

 

[Electricfan]

If you are buying the car for FSD or APE - don't buy now, wait until it's actually released.

I wonder how many people are doing exactly that? I am. I wonder if the huge reservation numbers for the 3 would be dwarfed by the amount of reservations they'd get if they actually had working FSD. Can you imagine Tesla with 2 million Model 3 reservations and growing?? That would be awesome. Only if I get mine in a reasonable time, of course.

 

[alcibiades]

If your point was: Show us that our existing, production HW can deliver Smart summon, Autosteer+ and some FSD-features today. Even with all the nags in the world. I agree!

Yep.

If it is ok for a car to "autonomously" stop at a stop light if the car in front of it stops (TACC), then I'm going to guess that legally it is ok for a car to autonomously stop at a stop light even if there is no car in front of it -- especially if it is marked as Beta and that the driver must be aware. Heck, just make the car alert/nag the driver that it is approaching a stopping situation.

I don't think that they are keeping the software from us because they are worried about regulations and/or perfection (see, every release of HW2 firmware). They are keeping it from us in the same way that I won't give my daughter a real live unicorn.

 

[boonedocks]

Georgia officially OKs self-driving cars on public roads

Hopefully the “if and when regulations allow” will stop being so easy to hide behind.

 

[speedy]

If you order now you'll get AP2.5, that does not mean they won't announce AP3 next month (to make it clear, does not mean they would either - I just don't know).

When I ordered in early August, my Model S specifications had option APH2, which I assumed was AP Hardware V2. I just checked my specifications (to be built early September), and it now has option code APH3. Is this AP Hardware 2.5 or are they starting to manufacture something beyond that?

 

[verygreen]

When I ordered in early August, my Model S specifications had option APH2, which I assumed was AP Hardware V2. I just checked my specifications (to be built early September), and it now has option code APH3. Is this AP Hardware 2.5 or are they starting to manufacture something beyond that?

We have no way of knowing, please post your teardown after you take the delivery!

 

[stopcrazypp]

Georgia officially OKs self-driving cars on public roads

Hopefully the “if and when regulations allow” will stop being so easy to hide behind.

I doubt single state solutions are that useful (other than for limited testing programs). People frequently drive across state lines and a car that can only function as L5 in one state isn't very useful (esp. when the likely biggest market for such cars, California, doesn't allow it). I doubt any of the automakers will release L5 functions before there is a federal solution (which is in the works, but not quite there yet).
Congress Just Pushed a Federal Self-Driving Car Law Closer to a Vote

 

[boonedocks]

I doubt single state solutions are that useful (other than for limited testing programs). People frequently drive across state lines and a car that can only function as L5 in one state isn't very useful (esp. when the likely biggest market for such cars, California, doesn't allow it). I doubt any of the automakers will release L5 functions before there is a federal solution (which is in the works, but not quite there yet).
Congress Just Pushed a Federal Self-Driving Car Law Closer to a Vote

But it IS legal and HAS BEEN approved for the state of Georgia and several others. “just sayin”

 

[stopcrazypp]

But it IS legal and HAS BEEN approved for the state of Georgia and several others. “just sayin”

Yes, but car manufacturers tend to not build solutions that work only in a handful of states, especially not the smaller ones. They put up with building California-only versions of parts/cars (for example, there are PZEV versions of cars built only for California) because it's by far the largest car market in the US, but they won't do the same for the smaller markets.

So I doubt any of the automakers are going to release something to the public that is legal only in a handful of the smaller markets. They are likely going to wait for a federal law to pass first that applies to the whole nation (it shouldn't take that much longer).

 

[Alketi]

So I doubt any of the automakers are going to release something to the public that is legal only in a handful of the smaller markets. They are likely going to wait for a federal law to pass first that applies to the whole nation (it shouldn't take that much longer).

If L5 were legal in say Georgia and Tesla (or any forward thinking car maker) achieved L5 with their vehicles and had a robotaxi plan, then those cars would be immediately be running through downtown Atlanta picking up passengers.

The cars would be geofenced to stay within the state, and the robotaxi company would rapidly put both Uber and every taxi in the state out of business. Other states would follow. And the federal government would too (if it was lagging).

 

[stopcrazypp]

If L5 were legal in say Georgia and Tesla (or any forward thinking car maker) achieved L5 with their vehicles and had a robotaxi plan, then those cars would be immediately be running through downtown Atlanta picking up passengers. Not even remotely a question.

They would be geofenced to stay within the state, and the robotaxi company would rapidly put both Uber and every taxi in the state out of business. Other states would follow. And the federal government would too (if it was lagging).

Google/Waymo's doing something similar already I believe, but that's not releasing to the "public" in the same context (as the cars are still fleet owned by Waymo). I'm talking about Tesla releasing FSD to the cars owned by the actual public, not a manufacturer or fleet company (Google, Uber, etc).

 

[Alketi]

Google/Waymo's doing something similar already I believe, but that's not releasing to the "public" in the same context (as the cars are still fleet owned by Waymo). I'm talking about Tesla releasing FSD to the cars owned by the actual public, not a manufacturer or fleet company (Google, Uber, etc).

I am too. I don't understand why you think Tesla will wait for 50 state approval when it can easily geofence the feature and begin a public robotaxi service in the states with approval.

 

[verygreen]

What does the atlas connections imply? Is the new map roll-out imminent?

Also, do we know what the NN is actually doing at this stage?

There's no telling when, but all the software bits for the ape maps are now there. At least on my car it does not appear to be fetching any maps and I am not yet sure if the somewhat cryptic errors in the logs are due to Tesla not yet ready or not. Need to play with it a bit more.

Also Tesla really-really does not want people to have root on ape, so they keep making my life harder and harder. Sucks for me, but I guess good for majority of people.

About the NN, it appears NN only is used for image recognition at the moment.

 

[SucreTease]

There's no telling when, but all the software bits for the ape maps are now there....

About the NN, it appears NN only is used for image recognition at the moment.

Can someone please explain what the acronyms APE and NN stand for?

 

[verygreen]

Can someone please explain what the acronyms APE and NN stand for?

NN is trained neural network data.
ape is the autopilot computer in hw2 and hw2.5

 

[stopcrazypp]

I am too. I don't understand why you think Tesla will wait for 50 state approval when it can easily geofence the feature and begin a public robotaxi service in the states with approval.

Tesla have never suggested they wanted to do a company owned taxi service. The current app based taxi services are not profitable (Uber is a huge money loser), and I doubt adding expensive company owned cars will help much (trading off labor with equipment costs).

However, the profit factor may change when the cars are owned by the public and it is the public financing those cars. I believe that's what Tesla Network is envisioned to be (not a fleet owned service, but public owned), similar to the idea behind Turo and Getaround.

 

[lunitiks]

I did not really ask about the cooling details, also this is for the Model 3 where they apparently colocated the ape and the ice in the same housing and then have it liquid cooled somehow. Not sure how all of this would work in X/S until we see a sample (unclear if current code even reflects such a setup or not).

Any info about cooling fans in the 2.5-code for S/X?