Hydrogen vs. Battery

[daniel]

A decade or so ago I was arguing with a woman about hydrogen as a fuel. I mentioned that hydrogen is an energy carrier not an energy source, as it has to be produced using energy, or more often, made by reformatting natural gas.

Her reply: "Well, you can believe that if you want to." Whereupon she walked away. She had heard that hydrogen is abundant and everywhere, and was totally clueless about the difference between H2 and H2O. She thought you could just pull hydrogen out of water.

I blame science illiteracy for the belief in FCEVs.

California's support of hydrogen probably comes from bribes from the fossil fuel industry, since nearly all H2 today comes from natural gas.

 

[nwdiver]

I blame science illiteracy for the belief in FCEVs.

I remember someone told me once their Prius was better than a Volt because you didn't have to charge the Prius (Ignoring the fact that technically you don't 'need' to charge a Volt either....). As if the energy was free..... Not sure what she thought the gasoline she filled the Prius with was for.... most people are complete morons.

 

[Sandor]

I remember someone told me once their Prius was better than a Volt because you didn't have to charge the Prius (Ignoring the fact that technically you don't 'need' to charge a Volt either....). As if the energy was free..... Not sure what she thought the gasoline she filled the Prius with was for.... most people are complete morons.

Gotta defer to the great George Carlin

 

[eevee-fan]

I remember someone told me once their Prius was better than a Volt because you didn't have to charge the Prius (Ignoring the fact that technically you don't 'need' to charge a Volt either....). As if the energy was free..... Not sure what she thought the gasoline she filled the Prius with was for.... most people are complete morons.

Well, that person probably got a cushy job at Toyota's Alternative Facts Dept. So... joke is on us.

 

[Watts_Up]

I agree with this completely. I am sad that the State of California is continuing to fund hydrogen refueling infrastructure (targeting 200 hydrogen fueling sites state-wide) for light duty vehicles (private cars) instead of putting more funding into EV charging infrastructure. I can believe that hydrogen makes sense for heavy duty trucking and other fleet vehicles, but promoting HFCV for private cars is just foolhardy given the convenience, usability and popularity of BEVs.

Unfortunaly the oil lobbyists are very strong, as oil company want to promote Hydrogen to keep people employed, and politicians want to have some easy taxable energy source.

In Europe its is even worse (see above map), where the manufacturing of batteries get discredited
and batteries are considered as a new source of polution compare to the 'clean' hydrogen.

Also in Europe, gas used for car if often taxed like 80%, so promoting Hydorgen is an easy way for continuing getting tax income,
compare to the electricity that you use at home where is difficult to separate home usage from transportation,
or to tax electricity produced for free in your backyard or on your roof.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Before everyone starts thinking their tribe is the smartest … I have lost track of how many people who tell me that their solar panels are free electricity.

 

[Watts_Up]

Before everyone starts thinking their tribe is the smartest … I have lost track of how many people who tell me that their solar panels are free electricity.

I understant your comment, but let me rephase it by saying "Does producing your own electricity is cost effective?", as I think this is what you have in mind?

- About producing your own electricity, there is some investment initialy, but part of it could get cover from tax incentives.
- During day time you can use directly your own electricity or send it to the grid, as some states provide a pay back mettering.
- Storing electricity in batteries, or other storage system, for night usage is certainly an big investment than need to be evaluated.
- There are some usage time to considere as battries are guaranties like for ten years and solars panels fot about 30 years.
- So you have to do your own homework and review all those points compare to your electricity billing rate....

But my previous posting was more dealing about 'should or how much' the energy (electricity, hydrogen, oil, natural gas..) used for transportation should be taxable?
Because IMO one explanation for politician pushing hydrogen usage for small vehicles, seems to be the tax income easy to get from it.

From @miimura previous posting, developping an infrastructure of hydrogen stations, let say like every 50 to 100 miles, is a nonsense
compare to the simplicity of installing EV chargers, since electricity is available anywhere, cheap to carry, or easy to produce is not available.

 

[nwdiver]

Before everyone starts thinking their tribe is the smartest … I have lost track of how many people who tell me that their solar panels are free electricity.

Has nothing to do with 'tribes'. Biden praised GM for 'Electrifying the industry'... the same GM that has suspended EV production because they keep bursting into flames. The same GM that killed the EV1. That's some grade A ignorance there too.

But if you pay $20k for solar panels that provide $50k worth of electricity what would you call that $30k difference? Seems more like semantics than ignorance.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Has nothing to do with 'tribes'. Biden praised GM for 'Electrifying the industry'... the same GM that has suspended EV production because they keep bursting into flames. The same GM that killed the EV1. That's some grade A ignorance there too.

But if you pay $20k for solar panels that provide $50k worth of electricity what would you call that $30k difference? Seems more like semantics than ignorance.

I used the word tribe colloquially of course. I was just reacting to all the “we‘re smarter than others” posts because we’re more knowledgeable about hydrogen. Yes, we can pat ourselves on the back for being better informed. But the proliferation of “look at those dumb rubes” posts were just getting under my skin. Maybe I’m just in a bad mood.

Anyways, no, some people do mean free electricity when they say free electricity from solar. It isn’t just semantics. They are genuinely confused. It doesn’t help that Tesla and others will sell power purchase agreements making the installation actually free.

 

[nwdiver]

I used the word tribe colloquially of course. I was just reacting to all the “we‘re smarter than others” posts because we’re more knowledgeable about hydrogen. Yes, we can pat ourselves on the back for being better informed. But the proliferation of “look at those dumb rubes” posts were just getting under my skin. Maybe I’m just in a bad mood.

Anyways, no, some people do mean free electricity when they say free electricity from solar. It isn’t just semantics. They are genuinely confused. It doesn’t help that Tesla and others will sell power purchase agreements making the installation actually free.

You're not bothered by the proliferation of vaccines make me magnetized, wind turbines cause cancer and GM is leading electrification nonsense???? Maybe I'm just in a bad mood.... It probably has more do to with intellectual curiosity and respect for reality than intelligence. Calling people that believe such nonsense 'morons' is more... 'colloquial'. Many of them are intelligent but their minds have been warped by ideology.

I don't take issue with the fact that people don't know... so much as with the fact that increasingly people don't care to know. Somehow ignorance became a virtue. We entered the 'Age of Stupid'.

Ok.... so I paid ~$10k for my solar system... it paid for itself ~4 years ago. I got anther ~30kWh of electricity today. What was the cost of that 30kWh? Am I incorrect to say it was 'free'? .... why?

 

[JRP3]

Ok.... so I paid ~$10k for my solar system... it paid for itself ~4 years ago. I got anther ~30kWh of electricity today. What was the cost of that 30kWh? Am I incorrect to say it was 'free'? .... why?

I suppose that from an accounting perspective it may be more correct to say that the cost is spread out over the lifetime of the system and with time your cost per kWH decreases.

 

[daniel]

I remember someone told me once their Prius was better than a Volt because you didn't have to charge the Prius (Ignoring the fact that technically you don't 'need' to charge a Volt either....). As if the energy was free..... Not sure what she thought the gasoline she filled the Prius with was for.... most people are complete morons.

Yeah. I heard that one, too. Except that I was driving my all-electric Zap Xebra and stopped at a light next to a Prius.

Before everyone starts thinking their tribe is the smartest … I have lost track of how many people who tell me that their solar panels are free electricity.

The electricity is free. The collector isn't. I contrast it to all the conspiracy theorists and perpetual-motion scam artists who claim their machine produces free energy. But they never talk about the cost of the machine. In contrast, solar power is real. And once you pay for the collector (panels and associated electronics) the energy is free. The conspiracy theorists claim the government is blocking our access to "free energy" machines. But the government actually subsidizes the free-energy machines that actually work.

 

[SageBrush]

I remember someone told me once their Prius was better than a Volt because you didn't have to charge the Prius

Funny !

But the woman may have been talking about her perception of convenience. And if that woman had someone who was responsible for keeping the tank full (as I have recently learned is not so uncommon), she has a valid point. I vaguely remember a spate of Toyota adverts that tried to convince people that not plugging in was a hybrid advantage.

 

[daniel]

Funny !

But the woman may have been talking about her perception of convenience. And if that woman had someone who was responsible for keeping the tank full (as I have recently learned is not so uncommon), she has a valid point. I vaguely remember a spate of Toyota adverts that tried to convince people that not plugging in was a hybrid advantage.

When the Prius first came out, "You don't have to plug it in" was touted as an advantage. No mention of the fact that you have to go to a gas station and fill it up, which takes a lot longer than plugging it in!

 

[SageBrush]

When the Prius first came out, "You don't have to plug it in" was touted as an advantage. No mention of the fact that you have to go to a gas station and fill it up, which takes a lot longer than plugging it in!

I gather that for many women in N.A the issue is not time but aversion to aspects related to charging/filling. I don't know details, only that men are not clued in to their motivations.

I don't think I am exaggerating when I say that it is common to find women who judge a car's merits by its size, seat height, place to place a purse and coffee cup; and have ZERO interest in ever looking under the hood of an ICE car. In fact, having to do so would be a reason to swap into a new car.

 

[eevee-fan]

I suppose that from an accounting perspective it may be more correct to say that the cost is spread out over the lifetime of the system and with time your cost per kWH decreases.

Purchasing rooftop solar, I calculate an ROI based on the 20 year agreement with NV Energy buying power at % of retail. This is my initial investment period. After the 20 year period, I would consider it free and I think so would NV Energy... will probably drop to 1-2c/kWh.

 

[daniel]

I gather that for many women in N.A the issue is not time but aversion to aspects related to charging/filling. I don't know details, only that men are not clued in to their motivations.

I don't think I am exaggerating when I say that it is common to find women who judge a car's merits by its size, seat height, place to place a purse and coffee cup; and have ZERO interest in ever looking under the hood of an ICE car. In fact, having to do so would be a reason to swap into a new car.

But if we're just looking at the claim "Don't have to plug it in" we're making a big deal out of something that takes a few seconds, and ignoring the hassle of putting gas in a car: Special trip to the gas station, maybe wait in line, pump the gas, maybe get gas on your hands. Plugging in is basically zero time and effort.

I'm not meaning to downplay comfort and interior layout. Just commenting on "Never have to plug it in," as if that were a nuisance.

Purchasing rooftop solar, I calculate an ROI based on the 20 year agreement with NV Energy buying power at % of retail. This is my initial investment period. After the 20 year period, I would consider it free and I think so would NV Energy... will probably drop to 1-2c/kWh.

I sold some mutual funds to pay for my solar (panels, related electronics, Powerwalls because the utility won't buy my excess, and labor). By doing so I gave up a certain amount of income. My electric bill dropped to $26.25/month, which is the minimum charge. My net disposable income increased, because the loss of income is far less than the drop in my utility bill. And that's not even the whole story, because I use more electricity now that it's carbon-zero and free. And I have power during outages.

Accounting can be a subtle process. One could say I splurged on a toy and now my electricity is free. One could say that all the electricity I use for the rest of my life needs to be amortized to the cost of the installation. One could calculate how much I was using for power, and the amortized cost of the installation, and say that the difference is free. What matters to me is that my disposable income went up, and after manufacture and transportation of the components, I'm producing zero carbon by my electric usage (including driving!) and therefore can use all the electricity I want.

In particular, I never used to bake potatoes in the oven because of the amount of energy used. Including A/C to cool the house because of the oven. But I love baked potatoes. Now, running the oven AND the A/C produces zero carbon and costs nothing. No matter how you do the accounting, extra use of the oven and A/C is free.

 

[Merrill]

But if we're just looking at the claim "Don't have to plug it in" we're making a big deal out of something that takes a few seconds, and ignoring the hassle of putting gas in a car: Special trip to the gas station, maybe wait in line, pump the gas, maybe get gas on your hands. Plugging in is basically zero time and effort.

I'm not meaning to downplay comfort and interior layout. Just commenting on "Never have to plug it in," as if that were a nuisance.



I sold some mutual funds to pay for my solar (panels, related electronics, Powerwalls because the utility won't buy my excess, and labor). By doing so I gave up a certain amount of income. My electric bill dropped to $26.25/month, which is the minimum charge. My net disposable income increased, because the loss of income is far less than the drop in my utility bill. And that's not even the whole story, because I use more electricity now that it's carbon-zero and free. And I have power during outages.

Accounting can be a subtle process. One could say I splurged on a toy and now my electricity is free. One could say that all the electricity I use for the rest of my life needs to be amortized to the cost of the installation. One could calculate how much I was using for power, and the amortized cost of the installation, and say that the difference is free. What matters to me is that my disposable income went up, and after manufacture and transportation of the components, I'm producing zero carbon by my electric usage (including driving!) and therefore can use all the electricity I want.

In particular, I never used to bake potatoes in the oven because of the amount of energy used. Including A/C to cool the house because of the oven. But I love baked potatoes. Now, running the oven AND the A/C produces zero carbon and costs nothing. No matter how you do the accounting, extra use of the oven and A/C is free.

Honestly at my age I look at enjoying life and I do not worry about what it costs, if something make me happy I do it.

 

[SageBrush]

But if we're just looking at the claim "Don't have to plug it in" we're making a big deal out of something that takes a few seconds

You are not hearing me, Daniel.
It is not the time involved that these women are talking about.

If my wife is anyone to go by, these concerns came up

• Fear of electricity
• Fear of doing something dumb and damaging the car
• Fear of forgetting to charge
• Aversion at having to think about charging and SoC
• Aversion at treating the EV as anything but an appliance with two pedals and a steering wheel
• Extreme aversion to hearing about watts and joules and sh1t she does not understand as prerequisites to being the sole operator of the EV.

Truth is, she was won over by time, the EV turning out to being a simple kitchen appliance (from her POV), the lovely ride, and not having to go to filthy petrol stations. But to this day she cannot figure out how long the EV has to charge to be ready for an errand and she has told me that left to her own devices she would buy a PHEV so that petrol was always there to come on if needed. If she can plug-in when she gets home and unplug the next day before she leaves, she thinks EVs are god's gift to women. Add in another wrinkle that is her responsibility and it is not for her.

 

[Merrill]

All this stuff is learned behavior, sometimes you may have to work a little harder but the payoff is the environment getting rid of fossil fuel etc.