Hydrogen vs. Battery

[Pollux]

Hi, @dpeilow,

I in no way wish to be confused with someone who thinks that hydrogen fuel cells are a viable economic and environmental alternative to BEV transport. I don't see how hydrogen can be produced economically except via Steam Methane Reforming, hence environmentally awful, and even when produced via distillation is energetically several times less efficient than BEV when assessed well-to-wheels.

That said: isn't your cost data for the cylinders themselves, i.e., cost of acquisition of the containers, and NOT for the gas itself? Presumably, cylinders would be re-used many, many time over a period of decades, and so cylinder cost may not be a significant factor in ultimate fuel cost. (But cost of transporting the cylinders might be significant!)

Thanks,
Alan

 

[dpeilow]

That said: isn't your cost data for the cylinders themselves, i.e., cost of acquisition of the containers, and NOT for the gas itself?

That's the cost for the gas.

However, I can see that I made an error: The price I used was for the smaller cylinder. The price I should have used was £63.36 each for a total of £507.

 

[Pollux]

Wow... I confess I'm still having trouble accepting that that's the cost of the gas, since it's so wildly over-the-top uneconomical! I would be THRILLED were that the case, since I have come to believe that the entire case for hydrogen fuel-based transport is fatally flawed by (1) the implicit reliance on steam methane reforming and (2) the cost and time to build out a distribution network for a challenging fuel.

Wow, wow... wow!!

Thanks,
Alan

 

[miimura]

I don't think it's reasonable to price hydrogen for a filling station based on price lists for industrial gas distributed in normal T or K cylinders. The low pressure storage may be in a collection of cylinders that size, but they will almost certainly use a special distribution truck that can transfer the gas in bulk.

 

[Zextraterrestrial]

Some info in here that I think clearly shows how crappy Hydrogen is for personal vehicles but it really tries to hide it.
so many parts of this paper that I just don't agree with. like the fact that CA believes FCEV's are necessary (all I can figure is the automakers are getting such a kickback on CARB credits for FCEV's that they push it or none of the decision makers do simple math?)

https://ncst.ucdavis.edu/wp-content...ns-Project-Report-Task-TO-016-ver4-Jan-23.pdf

I only think that H2 could be decent for transportation if we were to the point of having excess energy from solar that was being wasted.
way too energy intensive to get compressed H2
and you can't charge 'anywhere' like you can with an EV
major problems

for 'home filling' a simple fuel H2 station is $200k (& pretty big) and the energy used for 1 FCEV fill (~300 miles) is enough for a Model S to go at least 1000 miles. hmmm

 

[nwdiver]

for 'home filling' a simple fuel H2 station is $200k (& pretty big) and the energy used for 1 FCEV fill (~300 miles) is enough for a Model S to go at least 1000 miles. hmmm

IMO the goal should be using electricity to make CH4 and O2 from H2O and CO2. Electrolysis is an intermediate step but Hydrogen on it's own is no where near as useful has Methane.

 

[bxr140]

IMO the goal should be using electricity to make CH4 and O2 from H2O and CO2. Electrolysis is an intermediate step but Hydrogen on it's own is no where near as useful has Methane.

Make conbustion carbon neutral...so to speak. I like it.

 

[Adm]

That's the cost for the gas.

However, I can see that I made an error: The price I used was for the smaller cylinder. The price I should have used was £63.36 each for a total of £507.

Wrong again David. You get a discount when you buy in bulk, so the price drops to £52,80 per cylinder.

I wonder if these cylinders could be refilled on the spot. A hydrogen tube trailer can transport 1100 kg under 500bar pressure.

 

[dpeilow]

Wrong again David. You get a discount when you buy in bulk, so the price drops to £52,80 per cylinder.

How many did you need to buy to get the discount? I tried higher numbers without seeing a drop.

£422 for a fill up? Bargain!

 

[Adm]

How many did you need to buy to get the discount? I tried higher numbers without seeing a drop.

£422 for a fill up? Bargain!

120 cylinders.

The more I think of it... I just can't believe hydrogen is delivered per rack of cylinders. I have trouble believing they would be that stupid..

 

[nwdiver]

I have trouble believing they would be that stupid..

Really? They're using Hydrogen for fuel.

 

[macpacheco]

The final nail on fuel cell's coffin will be when the cost of lithium ion cells (or replacement technology) are low enough BEV costs are similar to ICE (say no more than 20% more expensive) such that the extra cost can be offset within the first year of a heavy duty commuter and the full cost of the car can be saved over 10 years of heavy usage.
This will surely happen before 2025, maybe sooner.

 

[nwdiver]

The final nail on fuel cell's coffin will be when the cost of lithium ion cells (or replacement technology) are low enough BEV costs are similar to ICE (say no more than 20% more expensive) such that the extra cost can be offset within the first year of a heavy duty commuter and the full cost of the car can be saved over 10 years of heavy usage.
This will surely happen before 2025, maybe sooner.

No... the 'final nail' will be a battery that can be charged in the same amount of time that it takes to fill a tank with gas (Which is neither possible or necessary) There will always be people that want to bludgeon new technology into the same shape as the old technology without considering advantages with the new tech like 'filling up' at home and significant improvements in cost and efficiency.

No doubt you know someone that discounts the advantages of distributed generation over centralized generation because solar and wind are variable

 

[GoTslaGo]

No... the 'final nail' will be a battery that can be charged in the same amount of time that it takes to fill a tank with gas (Which is neither possible or necessary) There will always be people that want to bludgeon new technology into the same shape as the old technology without considering advantages with the new tech like 'filling up' at home and significant improvements in cost and efficiency.

No doubt you know someone that discounts the advantages of distributed generation over centralized generation because solar and wind are variable

Oh, you mean like CARB?

 

[macpacheco]

No... the 'final nail' will be a battery that can be charged in the same amount of time that it takes to fill a tank with gas (Which is neither possible or necessary) There will always be people that want to bludgeon new technology into the same shape as the old technology without considering advantages with the new tech like 'filling up' at home and significant improvements in cost and efficiency.

No doubt you know someone that discounts the advantages of distributed generation over centralized generation because solar and wind are variable

When batteries are as cheap as I mentioned, 500+ mile range EVs will be the high end, enough so people can drive ultra long distances with just 1 full recharge (or a few partial recharges).
Speed of recharge becomes nearly a non issue if the battery is large enough.
The vast majority of people driving all day long stop at least 2 hours per day of driving.
And the overwhelming majority of drives are within that 500 mile range (each way).
The "need" for ultra quick recharging will die out once most people have driven an EV and know its better to wake up to a fully (or 80%) charged EV every day rather than going to a gas station.

 

[WannabeOwner]

Speed of recharge becomes nearly a non issue if the battery is large enough.

My dedicated household Tesla recharger is 21 MPH, so that makes a 500 mile charge 23 hours and 48 minutes ... not leaving much time to drive that 500 miles in the day !

 

[Adm]

My dedicated household Tesla recharger is 21 MPH, so that makes a 500 mile charge 23 hours and 48 minutes ... not leaving much time to drive that 500 miles in the day !

If you drive 500 miles every day, you obviously will be using SuC as well, but for 90% of all drivers home charging is more than enough 95% of the time. In 8 hours overnight you add 160 miles which is more than 5 times the distance the average UK driver covers per day.

So, if you travel 500 miles per day every day and you don't want to spend 30 minutes per day on a SuC, you might want to consider a hydrogen car. That is, as soon as the infrastructure is there to take you every where you want to go.

 

[jkn]

No... the 'final nail' will be a battery that can be charged in the same amount of time that it takes to fill a tank with gas (Which is neither possible or necessary) There will always be people that want to bludgeon new technology into the same shape as the old technology without considering advantages with the new tech like 'filling up' at home and significant improvements in cost and efficiency.

No doubt you know someone that discounts the advantages of distributed generation over centralized generation because solar and wind are variable

You forget battery swap. With it car can get fully charged battery as quickly as refilling gas tank. Battery price must come down enough, so that swap station can have large stock of batteries. Cars need to have leased battery, so that there is no need to return original battery.

 

[JRP3]

Battery swapping for passenger vehicles is just not a workable concept. I don't expect it to happen on any sort of large scale. As energy density increases and pack costs decrease then some capacity can be given up to allow faster charge speeds. So instead of building a 500 mile pack with an hour long charge time they might build a 400 mile pack with half an hour or less charge time, which means if you aren't completely empty your charge time will be even shorter.

 

[mspohr]

Nah, it was obvious hydrogen wasn't going to happen back then. There were just more people with their heads in a cloud.

I think the fossil fuel companies were also pushing for H2 since most of it comes from methane. There is no natural source of H2.