Hydrogen vs. Battery

[dpeilow]

Honda FCX Clarity | First Drives | Car Reviews | Auto Express

The outlook for Honda has never been so clear. This is the firm’s hydrogen-powered FCX Clarity, which it is backing to lead the world into a fuel cell future.

As part of that effort, the FCX Clarity gets its European launch this week. Being previewed in Germany, the clock is ticking on a UK launch, too. We got behind the wheel to find out what a lucky few have to look forward to.

It’s soon obvious that there are some major hurdles to overcome – not least the fact that extracting hydrogen in a sustainable way remains a major challenge. Honda’s short-term solution is to provide drivers with their own ‘home energy station’ – a device that turns gas from the mains supply into hydrogen for your car.

 

[vfx]

Forget it kids, we are going another way now.


Third one Down.

 

[doug]

But what of Ollie Oxygen, Holly Hydrogen, Wally Water and Mr. Catalyst???

 

[doug]

Batteries vs. Fuel Cells: A Tale of Unequal Federal Funding | BNET Auto Blog | BNET

There’s a collision coming, and both of the cars involved are running on electric motors. Both electric and fuel-cell cars are set to hit the market, but only the first one is getting any direct federal support. The Department of Energy is investing not only in battery electric cars, but in the plants that make their batteries. And yes, the DOE is also supporting hydrogen cars, but on a more basic research level—and with a fraction of the money.
...

 

[doug]

Thin Air (Show #1335) on Autoline Detroit

 

[JRP3]

Don't have a chance to view the entire show yet but Taub is really trying hard to blur the lines between batteries and FC's. I hope Sam nails him at some point in the program.

 

[vfx]

Now that they are loosing they are crying for "both" paths to be funded even while they make incomplete arguments like this document: http://www.h2gen.com/Uploads/file/Battery_vs_FuelCell_EVs.pdf

 

[mt2]

Don't have a chance to view the entire show yet but Taub is really trying hard to blur the lines between batteries and FC's. I hope Sam nails him at some point in the program.

Don't bother watching the entire show. It doesn't get any better.

 

[Serge]

Don't have a chance to view the entire show yet but Taub is really trying hard to blur the lines between batteries and FC's.

He did so in the beginning, when proactively addressing one of hydrogen fuel cells weakest points, which is cost. The message seemed to be "both technologies have enough similarities that R&D dollars help both advance." However, he was very quick to draw the line on application side playing into a theme being advanced by all OEMs with significant HFCV programs: "battery tech is for small or short-distance (in other words 'niche') vehicles, while hydrogen fuel cell tech is for larger or long-range ones (the ones that consumers really want)"

I hope Sam nails him at some point in the program.

He didn't. I'm not even sure he had an opportunity to. Taub is a good speaker and did most of the talking throughout the segment and on "battery vs. hydrogen" topic in particular. The only comment made by Sam (most people don't really need long range land yachts every day and can rent one when they really need it), while not without reason, unfortunately played into "EVs are niche, HFCVs are the real deal" trap.

 

[doug]

This article took an unexpected turn for me:
AUTOSHOW-Toyota, Honda go separate ways on sports cars | Industries | Consumer Goods & Retail | Reuters



On one side there's Toyota's Lexus LF-A, a 3.7s (0 to 60mph) 4.8L V10 ICE supercar. On the other side Honda has not the awesome Acura NSX. No, it has a green sports car. It has the FCX Clarity?!?!

... Ito [Honda's president and CEO] has other ideas for what a sports car for the next generation could look like: a zero-emission fuel-cell car like Honda's FCX Clarity, which is currently on lease in limited numbers in the United States and Japan.

Honda has never billed the sleek, hydrogen-powered sedan as a sports car, but Ito said it had all the characteristics to qualify.

"It's light because it's not weighed down by a tonne of batteries," he said in a jab at the battery-powered electric sports machines built by U.S. start-up Tesla Motors.

"When you weigh a car down like that, it undermines the characteristics of a sports car.

"But if you have a light car like the FCX Clarity that's powered by a motor, you get maximum torque from a zero start and acceleration is incredible. In a way, that's a sports car."

Honda. Redefining the Sports Car.

 

[doug]

TOKYO AUTO: Toyota Executive: Limited Electric Car Growth Without Aid - WSJ.com

[Toyota] Executive Vice President Takeshi Uchiyamada said Wednesday that the growth potential of electric vehicles looks limited without financial support from governments.

Instead, the market for cars powered by fuel cells may expand faster.

Really failing to see the logic here. Apparently fuel cells need no government aid.

 

[Serge]

"It's light because it's not weighed down by a tonne of batteries," he said in a jab at the battery-powered electric sports machines built by U.S. start-up Tesla Motors.

Funny he would say that. Perhaps he confused pounds and kilograms. I wonder what the weight of Clarity's battery is, for last I checked she weighed in at hefty 3,582 lbs vs Roadster's 2,723. Can't be all the lightweight hydrogen gear, right? 0-60 mph acceleration is heart-stopping 10 sec

 

[doug]

The Clarity is a whale, so the idea of it as a sports car is clearly (ahem) absurd.
This interview maybe clears up what Ito-san was getting at: Interview: Takanobu Ito, President/CEO of Honda

But if he were to dream up what a new Honda flagship would be like – it would be much like the old NSX with a very lightweight body, but powered by powerful motors fed energy by hydrogen fuel cells instead of the NSX’s petrol-powered VTEC V6. But that’s not going to happen for the moment ...

How much would the fuel cell stack have to weigh to provide enough power for supercar acceleration? How much does that tank weigh? Do they honestly believe that much in hydrogen or are they just towing the line?


.

 

[Serge]

The Clarity is a whale, so the idea of it as a sports car is clearly (ahem) absurd.
This interview maybe clears up what Ito-san was getting at: Interview: Takanobu Ito, President/CEO of Honda
How much would the fuel cell stack have to weigh to provide enough power for supercar acceleration? How much does that tank weigh? Do they honestly believe that much in hydrogen or are they just towing the line?
.

Honda's soul-searching issues aside, what I really don't understand is their outright hostility to EVs. Yet another Honda president is talking about "thinking outside the box," but where is the evidence of it? The quirky U3-X or the dinky UV-N or the pie-in-sky hydrogen fuel cell NSX, which even they implicitly confirm as unfeasible?
They already have a well tested serial hybrid platform in form of Clarity FCX. Why not make it with a range-extender that actually works with current fueling infrastructure?

 

[doug]

TTAC picks up on Honda's whining:
Honda: Supercar Sour Grapes? | The Truth About Cars

Ito claims that, in certain ways that are apparently more evident to firms that recently canceled their own supercar development, Honda’s FCX Clarity is a comparable sportscar. Sort of. But the sour grapes are so evident here it hurts. “It’s light because it’s not weighed down by a ton of batteries,” Ito says, making what may be the first Hydrogen-versus-battery sport-factor argument in history. “When you weigh a car down like that, it undermines the characteristics of a sports car.” Take that Tesla! “But if you have a light car like the FCX Clarity that’s powered by a motor, you get maximum torque from a zero start and acceleration is incredible. In a way, that’s a sports car.”

And Ito is right. Cars, especially enthusiast-oriented cars, should be as light as possible, and an EV sportster without the battery weight does sound appealing. But an FCX Clarity? That’s like calling the Volt a sports sedan.

And the NYT picks up on Honda's soul searching:
Foreign Carmakers Are Absent at Tokyo Motor Show - NYTimes.com

Honda, Japan’s second-largest carmaker, is wavering between technologies. It had initially focused on hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles, which use hydrogen and oxygen to produce water and electricity, as its low-emission technology of choice.

But after hitting road bumps like the exorbitant cost of the technology and of hydrogen fueling stations, Honda has been forced to turn its attention to plug-in electric cars.

Takanobu Ito, the chief executive, who previously hinted that Honda might need to sell electric cars in California to meet the state’s tough regulations, said he would also consider introducing electric cars for Europe and Japan.

“Hydrogen fuel-cell cars will prove to be the best in the end,” Mr. Ito said, according to Reuters, adding that “electric vehicles will also be a core option for cars in the future.” The carmaker will display a concept electric car, the EV-N, at the Tokyo Motor Show.

If you compare the two offerings, it appears Honda is directly trying to exemplify the pro-hydrogen talking points where EVs are small punishment cars and HFCVs are cars "people want to drive".



A BEV or REEV Clarity (perhaps not so huge) would be nice, but as I've said elsewhere, it will never happen. The Clarity is the hydrogen halo car. A non hydrogen version admit defeat and make too much sense.

Lets hope that the Model S is successful in proving a stylish BEV sedan is possible.

 

[doug]

Some words from GM CEO Fritz Henderson:

No more U.S. aid needed, says GM chief - washingtonpost.com via GM-Volt.com

Is GM pulling back on its hydrogen car?

"Are we putting resources into it? Not as much. . . . We spent through the mid part of this decade a reasonably high portion of our research and our development money on hydrogen fuel cells. We put 100 vehicles into the market. Consumers have tested them . . . We've learned a lot. The vehicles work. The issue is always cost, 100 percent cost. [He put the cost of the vehicles at upwards of $400,000.]

"It's still a ways away from commercialization. No question."

 

[JRP3]

Translation: We've spent billions and it still isn't practical, not even close.

 

[dpeilow]

Editorial: Henderson's fuel cell 10X cost comments are out of context — Autoblog Green

 

[JRP3]

That was a bunch of nonsense :frown:

 

[vfx]

Hydrogen Car Research Debate - Hydrogen Fuel Debate - Popular Mechanics

Even without criticism from the likes of Chu and Richter, hydrogen appears to be in trouble. Energy firm BP—part of the Big Oil crowd that EV conspiracists claim are behind the hydrogen push—has dropped its research into hydrogen for transportation. And while the restoration of DOE funds was seen as a victory by hydrogen supporters, $204 million is a pittance compared to the more than $8 billion in federal loans to automakers for EV production and research. Plus, there's the more ineffable sense of momentum. EVs have it, with new plug-ins announced monthly and the hype surrounding Tesla and Fisker's flashy vehicles, not to mention the auto industry's biggest gamble, GM's Volt. On the hydrogen side there is GM's tiny, blink-and-you'll-miss-them fleet of fuel cell Equinoxes and Honda's FCX Clarity, an unassuming sedan that requires approval from Honda to lease, based on your proximity to a hydrogen fueling station. Consider that GM's ill-fated EV1 was also lease-only, back in 1996, and it's easy to see the fuel cell vehicle as either seriously delayed, or headed for the same compactors that devoured hundreds of EV1's.