Hydrogen vs. Battery

[dpeilow]

Wow, it's been a whole month without a post in this thread :biggrin:

Study: hydrogen proponents rely on "five distinct fantasy themes" - Autoblog Green

 

[vfx]

Is Hydrogen Research Driven by Fantasy? - Scitizen

HA!

We also found three recurring narratives or statements that can be regarded as symbolic cues, used by supporters to trigger fantasy themes about hydrogen. Hydrogen is continually cited as most abundant element in the known universe; it is often hailed as odorless and colorless; and it is frequently described as pure, being the simplest element.

Each of the five fantasy themes concerning the hydrogen economy—independence, patriotism, progress, democratization, and inevitability—have many different elements and, at times, contradict. As one example, the theme of democratic revolution sees hydrogen as fundamentally altering the energy system and human relations with it, while the theme of progress sees it doing the opposite and enabling society to continue on its consumptive course. Furthermore, many of the sources we identified promoted a variety of different themes all at once.

There's more good stuff in here.

 

[doug]

Is Hydrogen Research Driven by Fantasy? - Scitizen

HA!

I agree with the conclusions. Though to be fair, the results of this kind of soft science can easily be swayed by bias.

It's also interesting to note that each of those five themes also apply to how advocates view BEVs.

 

[JRP3]

It's also interesting to note that each of those five themes also apply to how advocates view BEVs.

Well yes but EV's have the benefit of physics and reality backing up our positions.

(1) a theme of inevitability that depicts hydrogen as the inescapable and unavoidable result of socio-technical development;

Barring some unforeseen technological development, the numbers and available technology point in that direction for EV's.

(2) a theme of energy independence where advocates see hydrogen technologies as offering countries a robust, domestically insulated energy infrastructure immune from the vagaries of the global energy marketplace;

Obviously electricity is usually generated in country from local sources so that's pretty much a given with EV's.

(3) a theme of patriotism that paints hydrogen as a way to achieve national leadership, competitiveness, strength, and vitality;

Since EV's will likely be the future dominant technology taking the lead in that sector would be good for the country

(4) a theme of unlimited progress that views hydrogen as a mechanism to achieve endless economic growth fueled by pollution-free and limitless supplies of energy;

I'm not sure EV advocates are promoting endless growth or limitless energy by any means

(5) and a theme of democratization that sees hydrogen as ushering in a wave of decentralized energy production and use

Certainly the many and varied ways that electricity can be generated would lead to decentralized energy production, including home generation.

 

[doug]

Well yes but EV's have the benefit of physics and reality backing up our positions.

I agree with you. Just that as a scientist it's critical to be aware of one's own biases. I do, however, believe my biases are based on facts. Still, it's important to maintain objectivity. And on first glance this study seems to be lacking some.



.

 

[dpeilow]

BBC News - M4 in Wales to be 'hydrogen highway,' ministers to say

 

[malcolm]

Various concerns - including the proposed "hydrogen highway" and plans for the 2012 olympics:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/news/article7033674.ece

Despite the fanfare surrounding the announcement of the hydrogen highway, close inspection of the document reveals that it was little more than hot air. While many of the headlines that ran at the time made it sound as if we were heading towards a space-age future in which hydrogen-powered cars would glide silently between filling stations on their way towards Cardiff or Swansea, the reality is very different.
Behind the £7m earmarked for “hydrogen demonstration programmes”, only £500,000 has been set aside for the creation of alternative-fuel filling stations. Most of that is not going anywhere near the M4 and the so-called hydrogen highway, but is being shared out to projects in locations as far apart as Greenwich and Bedford. Just a small fraction of the grant is being used for a project near the M4: £120,000 has been given to Glamorgan University to help it build a new hydrogen filling station in Pontypridd. So anyone planning to top up their hydrogen tank at Membury or Leigh Delamere services is in for a long wait.

 

[dpeilow]

Interestingly, a couple of my contacts in the UK industry who are normally plugged in to government activities in this area were completely unaware of this development in Wales - which probably tells you how big it actually is...

 

[stopcrazypp]

Various concerns - including the proposed "hydrogen highway" and plans for the 2012 olympics:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/news/article7033674.ece

Hydrogen as a fuel is nothing new, and its advantages are clear: it is the most abundant gas in the universe and can be burnt in a conventional internal combustion engine with only limited alterations, but creates no harmful emissions in the process. If combined with oxygen in a fuel cell to create electricity to directly power a car, the only by-product from that reaction is water.

Just something I noticed from that article. It seems science writing isn't a strong point for UK journalists (same with a lot of US journalists too). If it's an EV, I bet they will point out power-plant emissions. Hydrogen nicely hides the emission source by being similar to a fuel, and there is again the misleading "the most abundant gas in the universe" claim.

 

[vfx]

This says it all

Electric Vehicle Tracker: Plug In America - Plug-in Vehicle Tracker


Hydrogen Vehicle Tracker: Vehicles | California Fuel Cell Partnership

 

[dpeilow]

Artificial leaves 'could generate hydrogen'

 

[dpeilow]

London to construct its own "hydrogen highway" in time for 2012 Olympics - Autoblog Green


And there was me thinking that the London mayoralty was all about the BEVs now.

I guess when BMW got the Olympic contract this was on the cards, but then with the Hydrogen 7 supposedly discontinued, what are they going to supply?

 

[dpeilow]

Fun facts about the UC Irvine hydrogen fueling station: 15 cars a day is too many - Autoblog Green

 

[JRP3]

 

[dpeilow]

This story was ok until the ending...

Motorists will soon have more choices for green driving - WALB.com News, Weather and Sports for Albany, Valdosta and Thomasville. Leading the way for South Georgia. |

 

[Tdave]

This story was ok until the ending...

Motorists will soon have more choices for green driving - WALB.com News, Weather and Sports for Albany, Valdosta and Thomasville. Leading the way for South Georgia. |

You mean the factually inaccurate statement? I want a citation for this:

Environmentalists and auto industry experts agree that a hydrogen fuel cell car is the cleanest option of all

 

[dpeilow]

Could go in a number of places, but GM: 'combustion engines will die' - Autocar.co.uk

 

[dpeilow]

Toyota aims for $50,000 production hydrogen sedan by 2015

Video: Schwarzenegger promises "Hydrogen Highway" efforts will continue

 

[stopcrazypp]

Toyota aims for $50,000 production hydrogen sedan by 2015
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/05/07/video-schwarzenegger-promises-hydrogen-highway-efforts-will-c/

I noticed some comments on websites that posted this news story.

The infrastructure, safety is commonly brought up for hydrogen. Also some people are aware hydrogen is mostly made from natural gas.

It is quite obvious people are doing BEV vs hydrogen comparisons. One thing I noticed is the perception that BEVs have tons of toxic metals while hydrogen has very little.

The recent news about rare earth metals from China plays a part. People obviously aren't aware that li-ion batteries don't use these metals, with NIMH from hybrids using these metals. Also they aren't aware the permanent magnet in brushless DC / AC synchronous motors.

Here are a list of prominent hydrogen cars that use AC synchronous motors:
Honda Clarity
Chevy Equinox Fuel Cell
Toyota FCHV-adv

The prominent EVs that use these kind of motors are the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi iMIEV. The Tesla Roadster and the Chevrolet Volt use induction motors which basically doesn't use rare earth metals.

 

[Young]

I noticed some comments on websites that posted this news story.

The infrastructure, safety is commonly brought up for hydrogen. Also some people are aware hydrogen is mostly made from natural gas.

It is quite obvious people are doing BEV vs hydrogen comparisons. One thing I noticed is the perception that BEVs have tons of toxic metals while hydrogen has very little.

The recent news about rare earth metals from China plays a part. People obviously aren't aware that li-ion batteries don't use these metals, with NIMH from hybrids using these metals. Also they aren't aware the permanent magnet in brushless DC / AC synchronous motors.

Here are a list of prominent hydrogen cars that use AC synchronous motors:
Honda Clarity
Chevy Equinox Fuel Cell
Toyota FCHV-adv

The prominent EVs that use these kind of motors are the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi iMIEV. The Tesla Roadster and the Chevrolet Volt use induction motors which basically doesn't use rare earth metals.

Chevy Volt uses PM motor, EV1 used induction motor.